Support the troops.
Stand behind the flag.
God bless America.
Disagree? Get out!
This is the message that TheInquiringEye has garnered from another discussion (which ran off topic). What do you think?
It is true. TheInquiringEye does not support the war in the middle east. TIE is appalled at the actions of the us government there, dropping bombs, invading Iraq, threatening Iran,overthrowing governments...Furthermore, TIE does NOT support the troops, who, under the vague auspices of securing Our Freedom, are walking Iraqi streets armed to the teeth, unwelcomed, uninvited, kicking open the doors of private homes, looking for 'insurgents and hidden weapons'. TIE considers this to be some of the worst kind of terroristic behavior, and is not shy at vocalizing this point of view.
If your opinion differs, I respect that.
However, does this all mean that, since TIE clearly is diametrically opposed to the policy of the US government (along with many religious aspects thereof), TheInquiringEye should get out? Or is dissent our duty, and perhaps even the highest service that we can render as individuals, to this country and to this world?
JackieRodzinski
TheInquiringEye
Posted: May 8, 08 6:09am
I believe the people who say such things are really the ones that do not love America because they do not believe in what it stands for. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not mean that everybody must tow the same line. Those of us that are willing to be critical of the powers that be are expressing those ideals not the ones that say "love it or leave it" . Goodbye to all you radical right wingers.
Posted: May 10, 08 7:10am
When anyone starts running down the country their on the fighting side of me.
Posted: May 10, 08 7:12am
oops that should have been they're on the fighting side of me. I should preview before I send.
Posted: May 8, 08 6:19am
When it comes to being patriotic Americans seem to have a united front and stand together as one against the world.
Nothing touches my heart more than seeing Veterans who fought for our freedom. I always thank them even if they are strangers. I am the type who calls each one I know on Veterans Day for a heartfelt THANK YOU with tears in my eyes. But of course I am from the South where we fly our flags proudly. We suck it up and dont complain about things instead we write letters and try to change the things we do not like with our best effort. I love America and I am proud to be an American.
Posted: May 8, 08 6:28am
Thanks for your comments, Pamela.
I, on the other hand, am NOT proud to be an American. This administrations actions have made me ashamed to be American.
TheInquiringEye
Posted: May 8, 08 6:36am
Again, Pam, thanks.
I believe that the 'democratic process' is nothing but an ideal without the 'court of public opinion'. To truly change anything, I believe the best opportunity is through that court.
Posted: May 8, 08 8:40am
I'm somewhere in between Pamela and TheInquiringEye. I was very moved recently in the presence of history in Philadelphia. The US has often been leader in genuine progress and a beacon for the peoples of the world. I am humbled and grateful for the men and women who put their lives on the line for us in the military.
But (you knew there was going to be a 'but', didn't you?), I am sometimes ashamed and aghast at the policies and actions of the US.
Pamela says we should stand together as one against the world. I am rather baffled by that. We are the most overwhelmingly powerful nation the world has ever seen. We can crush any nation. That power comes with the responsibility to use it with great care. One thing this means is that we must be very vigilant, as citizens, to see that the handful of individuals who happen to be in power at any given time do not abuse this power. Disagreeing with the government is a very healthy thing - all countries must have this kind of disagreement.
Also, national boundaries are artificial and, in the long term, very changable. What does not change is our common humanity. I cannot imagine standing against the rest of the world - that's like standing against "us".
Posted: May 8, 08 8:54am
Brilliantly said, Brian.
TIE
Posted: May 8, 08 6:24am
I love my country too you know, but I sometimes disagree with where it is taking us.
If there is something which I consider is radically wrong, I am at liberty to express my disapproval.
Contrast this to China and Zimbabwe.
I am grateful for the freedom - but it can only be achieved through a democratic process.
Posted: May 8, 08 6:32am
TIE, have you expressed this to your elected officials? It does not help unless you express your opinions. Also, you must get out and work to have the people you want elected to office to get things changed. It does not help to sit back and complain with no action. Also as Briscot states "through a democratic process"
Posted: May 8, 08 7:23am
Britscot,
I had the pleasure of visiting your country a few years back. I was witness to many of your countrymen expressing their disapproval of where your PM was leading your country. When they noticed an American in their midst, they made sure to express directly to me their disgust for what they perceived as their PM kissing the ass of my President.
We had a lively exchange of ideas and opinions, some different, some the same. (Personnally, I have always been very opposed to the war in Iraq and have always concidered it an illegal war.)
One opinion that we held in common was our appreciation for our freedom of speech.
Posted: May 8, 08 6:53am
Disagreement is fine, it is the American Way.
In fact, intelligent, informed, disagreement should be required - it shows taking an active, qualified, interest and making the effort to steer things back on (what you believe to be) the right course.
However, "I am NOT proud to be an American," "I do not love this country," and "I hate America" are borderline and the last one may cross the line. At the very least, they suggest the people making those statements should go live in other parts of the world for a while to see how we compare to, for example, Russia, Cuba, North Korea, China, most of Africa, and nearly the entire middle east.
Posted: May 8, 08 7:20am
Good point, Fromzy (hope this post finds you well and happy...) Knowledge and broadened experience are always good.
Nonetheless, discontent is a powerful motivator for change.
TIE
Posted: May 8, 08 7:59am
If the places you mention are so bad and I believe they are, why on earth do so many Americans continue to try and turn The United States in the same thing. Wire tapping without warrants, holding "Enemy combatants" forever without a trial or charges, and torturing people seems more like what those countries stand for than what the founders envisioned for the U.S. And don't tell me it is war because the constitution says that only Congress can declare war and they did not and they do not have the option to transfer that power to the President.
Posted: May 9, 08 4:09pm
TIE,
You're a very thoughtful person, so I'm sure you'lI see the problem with your remark about "kicking open the doors of private homes, looking for 'insurgents and hidden weapons'" Why the quotation marks?
Do you really imagine that a commanding officer would order men to risk death kicking in the doors of people not considered a threat? What possible good could that do? It would only cause more hate and risk more lives for nothing. I grant that we may misjudge exactly who is a threat at times, but not intentionally.
If you consider that "to be some of the worst kind of terroristic behavior", I can only imagine the low opinion you must have of those who bomb non-combatant men, women and children in food markets, subways, skyscrapers and parks.
Now to shift gears a bit.
I have no problem with "I am NOT proud to be an American", if the speaker means "my government is acting in a way that shames me". Plenty of people felt that way - and rightfully so - during the civil rights struggles of the 60s. But let's not forget: the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and many more laws addressed that problem. Laws passed by (mostly) white guys who believed in liberty. Yes, human beings still sometimes act like racist fools, but they don't do it with the blessing of our laws anymore.
I realize that you did not say you hated America, but since Fromz brought it up, I thought I'd kick it around a bit in case anybody does feel that way later in this thread.
"I do not love this country" and "I hate America" are just plain stupid. The US Constitution is a work of political genius. Name another similiar document that contains the seeds of its own destruction.
Think about it:citizens have the right to do away with the very document that granted them that right. If that's not democracy, I don't know what is.
To those of you who hate America: please do not confuse political office-holders and their policies and actions with the bravery and sacrifice that made the US Constitution a reality. We talk a lot about the Founding Fathers, but I assure you, there were a lot more Founding Mothers, Sons and Daughters who toiled and died in obscurity to give us our freedom.
Archaeologists have been digging up the Middle East for years. No one has found a ballot box yet.
Posted: May 8, 08 6:57am
II may be wrong, but I vaguely recall The Founders putting something in the Constitution about free speech. Are we still doing that, or has it been trashed under the catchall "Homeland Security"?
Posted: May 8, 08 7:21am
I think that's why we can and are having this discussion.
TIE
Posted: May 8, 08 7:01am
For a lot of people, "love" includes a lot of bickering, disagreement, and dissent. How else can you explain all the relationships and marriages that hold together despite the odds?
S/he who casts the first stone in saying that dissent requires "leaving it" should take their own advice and get a divorce with the first argument they ever have with their spouse.
Posted: May 9, 08 4:23pm
greg,
I can think of no higher praise for your words than to assure you I am going to steal and use them verbatim at the first opportunity.
Posted: May 8, 08 7:14am
America. Love it or leave it?
I intend to do both. I am hoping to retire outside of the US. I have grown weary of the bickering, dogmatic, inflexible and frankly, illogical, positions of many (most?) Americans that I see these days. So I would rather spend my dotterage among a slightly less "intense" populace, but I will never ever give up my American citizenship. I fought too damn hard for the right to vote at age 18 and proudly cast my first vote in 1972 at the ripe age of 20. From wherever I end up dropping my anchor, I intend to exercise my franchise as a proud American until the day I eventually tick off my wife enough for her to put me out of my misery.
Posted: May 8, 08 7:29am
The Fact that you say you are NOT proud to be an American, is what bothered me the most. If you don't agree with the current administration that is one thing, but if you are not proud to live in american and the opportunities that this country has allowed you, then go live somewhere else, and see how much better it is. And when you do realize that hey America wasn't to bad...stay where you are...don't come back.
Posted: May 8, 08 7:38am
This is my point, Frustrated...
Why shouldn't I stay here and fuss until things change and I am proud. Who are you to tell me to get out because I am disgusted, not happy, disagree with you, etc. Why can't I do those things from where I pay taxes?
I am not proud to be an American. I am sorry if that offends you. It is not meant to. It's a strong statement meant to shed light on what it means, or should mean to be an American.
There was a great movie a while back, El Norte. It was about a Central American brother & sister forced to leave their homeland. ..Sometimes you just have to stay and fight.
Respectfully,
TIE
Posted: May 8, 08 8:53am
Why would anyone have to be proud of having the lesser of two evils?
When I found out my daughter had drunk beer, I was NOT proud of her. I still loved her, I did not disown her, but I was not proud. I knew we had work to do and changes to make.
You don't take pride in something that is broken, you do what you can to fix it so you can be proud if it again.
Posted: May 8, 08 8:56am
Well said, JAW,
Posted: May 9, 08 5:47am
I second Frustratedin Atlanta's opinion. If you disagree fine, do something about it. If you're ashamed to be an American, do something about, get the hell out and stay out.
I heard that late night TV show guy Fergurson, a Scotsman who recently became a US citizen say that "this is the best idea for a country in the history of the world". It made me think, that our founding fathers had a great idea, not perfect, not utopia, had to overcome some rough spots, but a damn good idea.
So welcome to America, citizen Fergurson. In the same breath and with all due respect, expatriate Ms TheInquiringEye, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Posted: May 8, 08 7:58am
TIE, your statement really offends me too. It really hurts my heart because I know so many people would gladly accept your place here in America.
Posted: May 8, 08 8:57am
I am sincerely sorry, Pamela. It is not my intention to be offensive to you, or to anyone else.
TIE
Posted: May 8, 08 8:10pm
Pamela see below
Posted: May 8, 08 7:59am
I'm very grateful to be a American. Both sets of my grandparents came to this county looking for something more. (Sweden and Ireland). Of course I'm not happy about what's going on in the middle east. I'm hoping our troops come home soon. But TEI.. saying you don't support our troops is crossing the line. I'm not a politically outspoken person, but this really upset me. Ask the Mexicans trying and dying to get into our country. Yes..... I say; Love it or Leave it. Respectfully, Carla
Posted: May 8, 08 8:44am
What our troops are doing over there, well, we will never really know. That is what I was told recently, along with we don't really want to know.
Humans are animals. We've fooled ourselves into believing otherwise with our technologies and our laws, but we are animals nonetheless.
When put in a barbaric situation, we resort to our barbaric nature. It is nearly impossible to rise above while you have RPGs buzzing the hair on the back of your head.
Do you want to know where I think PTSD comes from? I'll tell you anyway. When you take an individual that is accustomed to all of the pleasantries we associate with humanity then put them in a situation where those pleasantries not only don't work, they can get you killed, you've initiated traumatic stress.
When these individuals have to live in this altered environment for an extended period of time, to the point where barbarism becomes the new 'normal', their underlying guilt brought up from their previous beliefs regarding 'humanity' starts to take its toll.
To compound it, they are told by a supportive nation that they are heroes when they see themselves as monsters for what they had to do to survive. They know they've committed terrible acts, but even in hindsight, they cannot see what they could have done differently. And in that regard, they are right.
I'm not referring to the ones that spent the majority of their time in the green zone. I'm talking about the ones that were/are in the areas where on a daily basis they have to deal with watching people die, trucks explode, be in a constant state of paranoia, and kill or be killed just to see another dawn.
I'm glad and relieved that they made it home alive, I acknowledge and respect the fact that they had to be the animals we've all suppressed, and I believe we all owe them a debt for going though it all.
What I don't support is "troops" on the organizational level. They con these people into signing up with their propaganda about defending and protecting our nation, they throw them into impossible situations, they try to convince them that they did nothing wrong when these individuals know themselves that it was all wrong, then they turn them out into the world they barely recognize any longer with hardly any assistance for re-adapting to life as we know it.
OK, while I have the soapbox drug out, I might as well jump on board with it.
Do you know what really chaffed me? At the same time that the Pentagon report came out that said shorter deployments would help our troops (the individuals) adapt better and avoid PTSD more, Dubya lengthened deployments from 12 months to 18.
One of the few times our government, our military, put the men and women first, they're obvious needs were put on a back burner because Dubya couldn't get enough citizens interested in fighting his nasty little war. When they say soldiers take care of their own, they are clearly referring to the individuals, because on the military organizational level, they couldn't give two hoots.
Posted: May 8, 08 9:01am
Once again, Just-a-Writer, my hat's off to you.
As individual men and women, the troops, Like the 'insurgents' have my sympathy. Political allegience does not change humanitarian compassion.
JackieRodzinski
TheInquiringEye
Posted: May 9, 08 7:38am
Just-a-Writer - thank you for this sympathetic analysis of a very troubling and dark subject. The bad guy in this story is War itself. I think that American soldiers, with some terrible exceptions, comport themselves remarkably well in the unspeakably difficult conditions of war. This speaks well of the American democracy and our military. But with war comes many horrors, inevitably. A certain recent US administration, who shall remain nameless, seemed to be oblivious to that well known fact when initiating a war whose objectives and supposed benefits have still not really been explained. So tragic...
Posted: May 9, 08 5:05pm
JAW,
It's good that you are sympathetic to the stress of combat, but I'm not so sure those men consider themselves monsters in any appreciable numbers. I certainly never did.
When told to fight, I did, scared or not. I never lost any sleep over it because I fought against an armed enemy. I saw the dead, but I never saw any I could guarantee that I had personally killed, not that it would have made any difference. Him or me.
I don't have any problem with those with moral objections to war. I'll fight for them. There is one catch, however.
I expect them to support me while I'm over there and when I come back home, dead or alive.
Posted: May 9, 08 5:14pm
What Dallas said seems to be correct to me.
Worthy of another pair of kudos.
Posted: May 8, 08 8:05am
My favorite quote:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Posted: May 8, 08 8:12am
Oh, and one more:
The peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country -- when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right."
-Carl Schurz-
Posted: May 8, 08 8:25am
Those are all great quotes...and I didn't say anything about whether are current officials in government are right or wrong...Trust me I don't agree with many of the the things they do(They waste money, they should be working more on alternative fuels, They need to deport illegal aliens)
BUT...I WOULD NOT SAY I'M NOT PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN..............
Posted: May 8, 08 9:02am
It's okay, Frustrated...I would fight to the death for your right to say that.
TIE
Posted: May 10, 08 8:03am
JAW, Whitemantou said there were neocons here.
Where did they go? Teddy, in my opinion, was the best President we ever had. Can someone please find his DNA and bring him back.
Posted: May 21, 08 10:03am
"We can crush any nation", That's an arrogant phrase (not you Brian). I agreed with most of you, we do love America, we dislike the way president Bush is leading this country, worst president ever, my personal opinion. Look at usa economy?!
"Patriotism is easy to understan in America, It means looking out for you country" (Calvin Coolidge 1923).
Politicians -most of them- need to care more for real American issues and start resolving domestic affairs.
Posted: May 8, 08 8:55am
Am I proud to be an American? Yes. And no.
I'm proud of many things about the US: freedoms, higher education opportunities, opportunities in general, the beautiful land itself, the diversity, the people as a whole, my right (obligation) to criticize, protections, quality of life, quality of medical care, the arts, technology advances, etc.
I'm not proud of: corruption in all levels of government, the fact that we police other countries under the guise of protecting freedoms, the poor quality of basic education in many areas, health care costs, rampant apathy, the slow disappearance of a middle class, the Patriot Act, environmentally unsafe practices, etc.
When I compare these two lists, and granted they're incomplete, I tend to see the positive outweighing the bad. I was in Russia two years ago; it was difficult not to run shouting in the streets that I am grateful and overall proud, to be American. (Felt a different kind of pride in my visits to Scandinavia, New Zealand, Austria, etc, but still -- we Americans are fortunate.)