Polygamy Ranch...Save the kids?

I am shocked it happened in Texas - We execute people for heaven's sake.

I think Warren Jeffreys is a evil criminal and a leader of a cult not a religious group.

No one has the right to rape children or make them marry at such a young age.

In my opinion, these women are as crazy as he is for allowing all of it to go on.

I hope they are all prosecuted. I watched a documentary with interviews from some of the women/children who left this same group. The horror is unimaginable and should not be tolerated. Someone has to help these children, I hate they are separated from the only life they have ever known - but they are unaware of their rights as Americans.

That is just my opinion. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!

Jackie on this one I disagree with your opinion.

The government should have taken away the men not the children. It is horrible for the kids to be taken from the mothers. Both the children and mothers need help.

I'm shocked that the media is perpetuating the myth from these men that the young girls are "spiritual brides" and their "wife".

They are 13-16 year girls, sexual abuse victims. These are girls being raped by 50 year old men, forced into marriage.

Their mothers have been the same victims of this abuse.

At great risk I'll point out a different perspective. [Because I do that]

In most cultures throughout the world women are married by the time they reach 14. Up through the 18th Century in Europe it was still common for girls to marry at 12-13.

This was the practice for most of recorded human existence, and still is everywhere but progressive western cultures. How then does it suddenly become "evil" or "child abuse"?

It's as though the world began in the Victorian era and ethics and morality don't exist beyond our borders.

If the people have broken our laws then they must be held accountable. I do not accept "Burn the witch!" mentality, where it seems the the guilty and innocent trade places.

This reminds me of something else that happened in Waco, Texas where the FBI murdered over 100 women and children "to save them from a cult!".

That is as sick as anything I've ever heard. TBD has a few cults going on here, I wonder if they involve the members children. Quick, call the FBI!

I haven't heard anything about this story. I don't watch sensationalist news stories, especially where sexuality and fear is used as the hook.

I suspect that the truth is quite different from what's being alleged by the US Government (Waco, Ruby Ridge) It'll be interesting to see how the story plays out, and hear the other sides.

This story smells like another chapter in the great new witch hunt of the 20th and early 21st Century (Sex Crimes)

This story is slimy on so many levels, it's scary. A classic case of Irritainment.

As I understand it, they have yet to find the woman who allegedly called in the complaint. Since people have a right to face their accuser, any legal case may face a challenge because of this. It is also disputable that there was any physical abuse. Part of the problem is that when the State attempted to enter the medical records into evidence, a thousand attorneys filed an objection, so these are under investigation.

Reports I have read indicate that there were no obvious signs of abuse (which doesn't mean there wasn't any). Meanwhile, of course, with no obvious accurser and no obvious signs of abuse, the children are being separated from their mothers.

The fact that young girls being allowed to marry in other cultures is not, I think, germane. While it may be acceptable in other cultures, it generally is not acceptable in this one. On the other hand, State intrusion is also generally unacceptable in this culture.

As mentioned, this is a very slimy story. I think the State jumped the gun a bit. They've got a shaky accusation, at best, and they appear to be on somewhat shakier ground if they can't show physical abuse.

Be very careful what you see in the Media. If you think they don't have an Agenda, you're crazy. They're out to sell papers and garner ratings. think the alleged Duke Rape Case if you doubt this.I generally suspect you could pick anygroup and you would find some way to portray that group as a "cult."

As I said, this is irritainment, pure and simple. it's pure sleaze, from both sides, but you just can't turn away.

While it may seem intrusive for the United States government to intervene if I was one of those young girls at a point in my life where, if i was to have sex at that young age I would want to have it with a young male, I would drop to the ground and kiss the feet of the Texas authorities for saving me from having to have my body invaded by the old guy! yuk! Course I am thinking that from the perspective of a free woman who did have the freedom to choose who she would have sex with and guaran-goll-darn-teed it was not someone outside of my generation; the very notion would have made my skin crawl. Thank you once again United States of America that I am not in human bondage emotionally, mentally, physically, sexually, or any other ...ally!

Dear guys: no offense I hope! Not trying to make older men seem gross but to me at a young age it sure would have been! yikes! I love the freedom to travel, move, and pick partners at will but maybe these 16 year old girls are thrilled to be designated as some older guy's 4th partner and become his baby making machine..... gag...

p.s. however at my age now an older guy is all the rage!!!

There are a lot of unanswered questions for this entire incident.

On tonight's news they said they now believe that the phone calls that brought the entire thing to attention were possibly phony. Could that wipe out the grounds for having invaded the compound in the first place and make the warrants the authorities had illegal?

While it is true that children marry in other countries, under the laws of our country, it is illegal and basically immoral when 13, 14, 15 year old girls are forced to "marry" much older men--men old enough to actually be their grandfathers. Most of these child brides do not know this is against the law because to them, the laws of the land do not apply--only the laws of their culture and this "culture" is all that they know.

But why, after knowing for decades about the polygamist communities that are in Southern Utah, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Nevada, are they making such a big deal about it NOW? Nothing is going on in any of those compounds or communities now that has not been occurring for the entire duration of their existence. Child brides, multiple wives--none of that is new. Nothing new is being taught to the children, nothing has changed in the practices of the members.

These kids deserve normal lives but who decides what "normal" is? I don't agree with the lifestyle of these people and do not condone it in any way but does the state have the right to take all of their children away on heresay evidence? what is to stop the state from coming into our homes and taking our children away if someone else doesn't agree with something we teach our children?

I don't agree with what goes on there or the lifestyle but I really don't understand why it is such news all of a sudden when it is not anything new. Why have law enforcement officials simply turned a blind eye to the sects all this time? And why the sudden jump to right the wrongs--to protect the children of women who were themselves married at those same young ages? These child brides were born to women who themselves were child brides--the cycle continues.

Taking the children away from their mothers--what is that going to solve? The state is "saving" approximately 400 children--ripping them away from their mothers, taking them away from everything they have ever known and placing them in foster care in a society they have been taught to fear. They want to place these children in permanent situations--long term foster care or adoptive homes. How many of these kids are going to adapt and ad]ust and be "normal" and how many are going to be scarred psychologically from the way this has all come about and from being taken away from their families?

And what about the future children these women will surely continue to bear? Will the state wait at the gates to take these babies as well?

I believe that when the state took this action, it was without thinking it through completely. I feel sorry for everyone involved. These people believe that they are living a "higher order". These children know nothing other than this lifestyle. The government has looked the other way for decades but now changes their mind.

Who is right when it has all been wrong for so long?

http://www.outofpolygamy.com/ This is an interesting site to look at. Also, I heard on the news last night a form of "punishment" that one of the fathers allegedly carries out on his young babies that sounds like waterboarding combined with spanking. The description was that the method was used to instill fear in the baby, the other children, and the mother. The father allegedly would spank the child and then place the child's upright face under a running faucet until gagging occurred, and continue these two things in a rotating cycle until the baby was too exhausted to cry anymore. I can only hope and pray this is a fabrication. I simply cannot imagine a human being mistreating a baby or child.

Anytime people's lives are completely controlled by someone else it is abuse no matter what the situation. Maybe the raid was over done and too broad but something did need to be done. Common sense and moderation in all things is a good way to run almost anything.

A complicated case of epic proportions. First, any suspicion of child abuse must be investigated. Second, was the original warrant valid? Third, now that there is apparently evidence of crimes what to do about it? Fourth, how to deal with the children that are probably incest victims as well as victims in other ways. Fifth, who cares what adults do if they are off on their "ranch?"

These are just a few of the questions brought on by this case. Also, what connection will there be with the "ranches" in Colorado? In Utah? So forth and what does that bode? Reality is that no society can stand by and see children abused like has been shown time and again with these kinds of cults but then again, how much power do we want government to have in our lives? I do not envy anyone involved in this case.

Course we know child abuse is not exclusive to these seemingly cult type societies. Anyone see the charges brought against the father whose five week old twins were found while in his care with multiple blunt force trauma injuries (dead). As I walk in the shoes of these children who are beaten, sexually abused, and murdered by adults my heart rips out.....

if any of these multiple wives are on public assistance then the government can intervene,

if a man wants 8 wives (of legal age) or a woman wants 8 husbands.. thats fine with me.. as long as they are not on the welfare role.

SP,

Glad you feel better after your rant but there's a small problem. Perhaps two.

First, evidence indicates the Davidians set the fire themselves, preferring death to prison. That comes from, for example, bugs in the building.

Second, even if the FBI did set the fire thru stupidity - see #1 - it wasn't murder. It was suicide by cop. Cops came with a legitimate warrant, got fired on. At that point anything that happens is the fault of Koresh and followers.

What makes this case so disturbing is the conflicts it embodies. On the one hand, the state has a real interest in protecting children from abuse. On the other hand, personal liberty is central to American values, including the liberty to live an alternative lifestyle. I personally see nothing wrong with polygamy among consenting adults. But the teen girls who are married off to men three times their age are not adults. There's a real issue here of age of consent, and even rape. But the authorities have yet to produce the girl who supposedly blew the whistle. And the authorities tolerated this group for years with nary a whimper, then all of a sudden they went in there like gangbusters. I don't have much sympathy for this group and what looks to me like child abuse. But I don't have a whole lot of sympathies for the Texas cops and the way they've handled this either.

Well, after reading the replies to this question, all I can say is that Pologamy is against the law and in the U.S. having sex with a young girl is a crime, no matter what you call it.

This was in a web-site discussing Pologamy:

"An additional charge of bigamy should be added when polygamists are charged with other crimes. These other crimes are varied and include such charges as tax evasion, welfare fraud, medical neglect, incest, etc. This charge of bigamy would also carry a punishment of up to five years in prison. We feel that it may act as a deterrent, urging a man to think twice about marrying his 13 year old niece."

Something to consider.

If these people are free to reproduce in unlimited numbers why am I not FREE to refuse to provide tax dollars to support their hobby?