Groups > Islam

Judi - I was pretty sure it was a leg pulling for Hossain, though I didn't realize, until you wrote about taking your erelationship with Hossain to IM, that you had a personal efriendship.

As to Americans being hard on Christianity, I think it has more to do with the politicization of religion in America that started in the 1950s and had reached almost toxic levels by the first Bush campaign. The very concept of a 'moral majority' or a 'christian right' set up insiders and outsiders and the continuing arguments one reads on religious blogs and threads about America being a "christian" nation just keep increasing the acid levels. Whose christianity? The Catholic bashing Dink's? Where does that leave Teacup? or Queenie? So the anger is quickly triggered any time Christianity comes into play.

As I read through Hossain's threads in this board, I notice that Islam gets a bashing-lite. Americans lack sufficient grounding in Islam to do our usual job on it. Since Bush shoved us into Iraq, we are getting a better idea that it isn't just one religion. Like Christianity, it has had its schisms. Like Christianity, it has fundamentalists within the major schisms. Like Christianity, it has people who use its tenets to drive political agendas and justify violence in its name. But the bulk of America still doesn't really understand (and I include myself in this) just what the differences between Shi'a and Sunni and Wahabi really mean.

Hossain -

Thank you very much for stepping forward to express your beliefs and take questions. There is so much wrong information floating around in Western culture about Islam, Islamic culture, Muslims, the Quran, and more. Also, many of us in the US are seldom in the company of Muslims in a way to allows the kind of personal conversation you have brought to this group. So well done!

As a Catholic Christian, I am as saddened by the mistaken beliefs people have about Islam as I am about false and unexamined assumptions about my faith (or anybody else's, for that matter). Those who do not know (and don't want to learn) the foundations for their faith will miss the fullness that faith brings to life. To be fair, it is often the case that "we don't know what we don't know," and that leads to the sometimes silly mistakes people make about religion. This is why your writing in this group is so beneficial and welcome; in 15 minutes of reading this discussion, I've learned a great deal about Islam that I didn't know before. I hope that all of us can discuss our beliefs with the courtesy and generosity you have shown.

All the best,

Chris (a.k.a. Austinato)

I am pleased to see how well this discussion is going now. It is a relief that the semi-hostilities seem to have ended.

With all due respect to Bro Hossain, I feel that, while he is able to speak for the Shi'a, he is not qualified to speak for the Sunnis, especially if he is giving erroneous information n such as has been stated in this thread. InshaAllah (God willing) I will respond to the question regarding the Shia and Sunni from the Sunni perspective. I am eager to hear your thoughts on this matter once I have posted.

From what I have read so far, the major differences between the Muslim view of Jesus (Isa) and the Christian view are:<l>Jesus is not Divine under Islam.<l>Jesus was not crucified and resurrected, a trick was played on his followers.<l>the New Testament is not the work of Jesus nor his disciples and is thus suspect.

Christians need to understand just what Hossain means when he says that the Quran has remained uncorrupted for 1400 years. Every male Muslim is required to learn the Quran by heart in Arabic. He is then instructed by his teachers in the accepted understanding of the Arabic in his own language according to his "brand" of Islam.

Thus the variety of understanding about modest dress. One region may only require a hijab (a scarf that wraps around the head and completely covers the hair,) another a nijab (a scarf that covers both hair and shoulders,) a chador (a scarf and robe set that leaves only the eyes showing,) or the burqa (a veil that covers the entire person.) There are instruction for modesty in men, as well, and the more restrictive a woman's dress in a specific tradition, the more restrictive the men's. Thus, in Saudi Arabia, which has the most restrictive attire outside of the psychotic taliban, the women wear the chador and the men wear a floor length robe, a headpiece and a scarf that covers the back of the neck and upper shoulder.

Some traditions extend the modesty codes to what is worn under the robes with the most restrictive requiring the women to wear loose trousers. This is so that the shape of the legs cannot be seen in silhouette when light shines through the robes.

Muslims should realize that though they believe their faith to be a single entity, from the outside it appears almost as fragmented as Christianity. And certainly as politicized. When a country such as Iran vacillates, decade to decade, between a more Western lifestyle and what Westerners perceive as a more Medival one, it does not encourage thinking of Islam as an uncorrupted faith.

For Americans, there is the added confusion of a faith that appears to concern itself more about outward presentation than inward spirituality.

Dear Austinato

You are welcome to this discussion. I'm very glad of hearing that these words are useful and interesting for you. I hope my comments can attract your satisfaction in future too. I invite you to read my other discussions and also my next story that would be about Noah ship.

Perm, you asked about the differences of Shia, Sunni and vahabi. I've posted it in (tough questions & answers - God) one of my discussion, you can read it, but I bring it here again for your comfort.

Imamat (Leadership):

After the death of the Holy Prophet of Islam (S.A.W.), the Muslims were divided into two big groups:

First Group: They believe that after the death of the Holy Prophet of Islam (S.A.W.) there is no need of any prominent leader who should possess knowledge, infallibility and other conditions.

But any of the followers and companions of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) can become the religious leader. Basically in the issue of government one who merely claims to be a Muslim can claim the power and administration of the society and it is incumbent on the Islamic nation to follow him as the Caliph of the Muslims. This group came to be known as Ahl-Sunnah (Sunni).

Of course, Sunnis divided to four original branches, and vahabi is one of the sub branches and the most extremist one.

Second Group: The second group is the people who believe that the Holy Prophet of Islam (S.A.W.) was the last and final prophet sent by God and who by his prophetic mission brought a perfect religion for the humanity.

After his death the connection between God and people has been cut off and it is one of the reasons for the comprehensiveness and finality of the religion of Islam.

But after the passing away of the Holy Prophet of Islam (S.A.W) it is necessary for the Islamic nation to follow such persons who have superiority in all the human and Islamic attributes from all the other people of their time that means they should be superior in knowledge and science from every body and should be away from every error and fault.

Thus, the religious leaders after the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) should possess two basic conditions of knowledge and infallibility and only those persons possessing these two qualities deserve to be the Imam and leader of the Muslims. This group of Muslims is known as "Shia."

Also Shia has some branches too.

Shia

Now we are expressing ourselves to you as we are the followers of this doctrine and thought and to authenticate our beliefs which we have mentioned them with proofs in our books of creed.

We Shi'ites Muslims believe that after the Holy Prophet of Islam (S.A.W.) only twelve distinguished personalities who possessed the characteristics of Imamat (leadership) like knowledge and infallibility one after another guided the people and their names in respect to their chronology of their lives and Imamat of these great personalities are a follows:

First Imam: "Ali" (A.S.)

Second Imam: "Hasan" (A.S.)

Third Imam: "Husain" (A.S.)

Fourth Imam: As-Sajjad (A.S.)

Fifth Imam: "Al-Baqir" (A.S.)

Sixth Imam: "As-Sadiq" (A.S.)

Seventh Imam: "Al-Kazim" (A.S.)

Eighth Imam: "Ar-Reza" (A.S.)

Ninth Imam: "Al-Jawad" (A.S.)

Tenth Imam: "Al-Hadi" (A.S.)

Eleventh Imam: "Al-Askari" (A.S.)

Twelfth Imam: "Al-Mahdi" (A.S.)

Perm, this is your sentence:

Christians need to understand just what Hossain means when he says that the Quran has remained uncorrupted for 1400 years.

The Quran challenge:

I yet insist on my claim. If you doubt or you think it may be only a claim, you can research to find it out or prove that it is not right. Of course, you can ask all scientists in any field from all over the world and from beginning of Islam up to now to help you.

But I'm strongly sure that no one can find even a bit changes in holy Quran.

And this is the reason that we say Quran is a miracle of God and eternally unchanged.

You talked about the culture of dressing of different Muslims in different places, and also about changing lifestyle in Iran in past 30 years. And then you compare this changing with my claim about Quran.

But firstly, any logical and justice person knows that these are not comparable, on the other hand the culture and lifestyle of any nation are respectful and polite people never ridicule culture of others. What did you mean by this sentence and the word "medieval"?

When a country such as Iran vacillates, decade to decade, between a more Western lifestyle and what Westerners perceive as a more medieval one, it does not encourage thinking of Islam as an uncorrupted faith.

Up to now, I've stated many times my opinions about Christ (PBUH), noble Bible and Christianity obviously, now I'm interested in to know your (all members) opinions about Mohammad (PBUH), Quran and Islam, please don't hesitate and write your intend ideas about them.

Hossain, I did not argue your statement of corruption. Having never been translated, the Quran remains 'uncorrupted'. However, as you yourself noted when explaining Shia and Sunni, Islam has fractured due to interpretation.

I am not making 'fun' or ridiculing cultural differences (except, perhaps, the Taliban and even you have to admit they were off the edge of rationality.) I simply used dress to show how Islam is NOT a single practice, just as Christianity is not a single practice.

And I wrote truthfully of how Americans perceive the more fundamentalists Islamic cultures - as medival. (Medival is a period in Western history where the common folk were at the mercy of the wealthy, where science and art were suppressed, where only the Church had true power.) We also think the FLDS (an American religion of dubious provenance) and the Amish (remnants of the Christian Anabaptist movement of the 19th century) are 'backward'. Such feelings about religions that try to 'freeze time' are applied to homegrown faiths, as well.

It is very hard for Americans to wrap their minds around a religion that changes its public expression as dramatically as does Islam as you travel from place to place and political structure to political structure. For all the similarities (the left hand being unclean, not eating with a fork, communal dishes, removing one's shoes upon entering a house or mosque, praying five times a day after washing one's hands and face) there are so many dissimilarities that are spoken of as if they were practices of faith rather than cultural tradition.

One of the biggest stumbling blocks for Americans is the notion that women should remain apart, secluded. Some Muslims simply take this to mean that a woman should have no physical contact with males not of her family and retain what Catholics used to call 'modesty of the eyes' - that is, not make direct eye contact with strangers. For others, it means women may not be seen nor heard by anyone but other women or men of their families. Only fifty years ago, there were parts of the Muslim world where, once she reached puberty, the only male over the age of four a woman saw was her husband - not even her father or brothers or sons were permitted to see her.

If this truly protected women, we might accept that the teachings concerning isolating women and the extreme modesty of dress was in a woman's best interest but rape persists, spousal abuse persists. I personally know of women who, while in Saudi Arabia, were out in the company of other women and these women were groped or slammed into by passing men and the men did so with complete immunity. Just by being out in the world, women were 'fair game'. For Americans, such a concept is appalling.

As to applying my use of dress to show the differences in expression across the Muslim world, you are mixing the Quran and Islam. I did not use this example to argue against the incorruptable state of the Quran but about the fractured nature of Islam. This is like mixing the Old Testament and Judaism or the New Testament and Christianity. One is The Book, the other is how various people have chosen to express it. Humans being as they are, expression changes even when The Book remains the same.

Myself I don't understand either. But I have to keep an open mind and heart. As if everyone dosen't understand Buddhism either. So, I do understand where people are coming from. But we can't live our lives in fear at all.