From the original post:
Found this interesting blog/discussion about the rules of English and why some of the ones we were taught...
21 Comments // 9 Members

Posted: Jun 15, 08 9:32am

As a matter of fact, I'll bet he can.

He can, but he made me swear I wouldn't kiss and tell.

Posted: Jun 15, 08 9:36am

yeah, who knew?!?!

LOL ....we did ...LOL .....Ah ha ha ha

Posted: Jun 15, 08 1:30pm

just leave my dangling participle alone!

WS
WS
Founding Member

Posted: Jun 15, 08 4:07pm

Perhaps one should ask why one would try to install a rule from Latin, an Italic language - in which the word itself is an infinitive form and therefore can not be split - on English, a Germanic language - in which the infinitive form is two words and historically split.

Isn't this a bit like telling Granny Smith apples they must be a certain color because oranges are?

Well, Fromz, Germanic languages are something I know something about and I see NO proof that this rule comes from Latin per se. it is correct in Germanic languages to use nominative on either side of verbs for "being" or "becoming." Ich bin ein guter Mann (nominative - not Ich bin einen guten Mann. - accusative) This is true of Middle High German (medieval) , Gothic, and Germanic languages today in general. English as a Germanic language would follow the rule. Ich bin es. = It is I.

Posted: Jun 15, 08 4:49pm

I might remind you that the author of the piece did not reference the me/i question, That was a comment from someone else. (And then I would invoke the living language concept.)

The article talked about beginning a sentence with the conjunctions "and" or "but," ending a sentence with a preposition, and splitting infinitives.

And if I were feeling really persnickety, I would point out the actual translation of ich bin es is "I am it" or simply "I am." "I am it" is a perfectly good English sentence (So is "I am" but the context would be different.) but because the two languages are of the same family rather than a word for word substitution, we often have to rearrange. Rearrange for comfort - the comfort of a familiar form.

Which does invoke the living, changing language concept.

But all this is really beside the point of the linked article which was:

For invigorating, natural writing, unlearn these silly superstitions and rediscover how to write what sounds right.

That little bit of advice was good enough to keep me employed as a writer for 15 years.

WS
WS
Founding Member

Posted: Jun 15, 08 5:36pm

I wouldn't be persnickety, Fromz (Yes, you are right - I was responding to Fournier's comment), however, the correct translation of "ich bin es" - is - It is I. (The literal translation might be I am it - but that is not the meaning in German. "Ich ""bin es" is used when (for example) one enters the room and wants to identify oneself. as in don't worry, it is just (me) I.

There are certainly times when one can not avoid using a preposition" at the end of an English sentence. (Thus the Churchill quote - To put up with something pretty much requires the with at the end, nonetheless, if we are talking about correct grammar, it is (in my opinion) better English to say the man with whom I arrived, as opposed to the man I arrived with, and anyone that claims this relates to Latin rules isn't taking into account 100s of years of German language.

Germanic languages use prepositions as verbal prefixes as well as with relative pronouns. If the "preposition" is a verbal prefix, then it is appropriate for this "preposition to come at the end of the sentence in a Germanic language. if it is being used with a relative pronoun, it really isn't. In MInnesota, you will frequently hear people asking, "Are you coming with? (Kommst du mit ?- (using the verb mitkommen)) This is very different from- Der Mann, mit dem Ich trinke, ist alt...) (the man, with whom I drink, is old. A German would not say, Der Mann ich trinke mit,... (Only a verb prefix can come at the end of a sentence.)

If you are wishing to invigorate writing, then I have no problem with you putting your preposition wherever you like. That is why I posed the other questions in the first place. If you want to talk about correct grammar, that is one thing. If you want to talk about simplifying, changing language or freeing the spirit, that is another. Correct and appropriate may be two entirely different things. (Remember, You framed the discussion in terms of why some of the rules we were taught were wrong - I don't care if you follow the rules, but I am pointing out that they aren't necessarily wrong.)

Posted: Jun 15, 08 6:11pm

LoL :-)

I can never figure out how to explain quite what I mean about the the Ich bin es thing. Obviously, I haven't been successful again. Perhaps that's because I think about words and their meanings in a different way than grammarians do.

As for the rest of it, I would argue that any "rule" that makes communications more difficult is an invalid rule.

I'm not suggesting there should be no rules. Only that some of the ones we were taught are now obsolete if they were ever valid in the first place.