Hi Raf:

I wonder if there isn't a difference between justice (a virtue of institutions such as a car manufacturer making a car according to claims) and truth which is more directly associated with systems of thought..

Hi Rafael,

I believe religion is man/woman attempting to define God.

I believe spirituality is man/woman allowing/accepting/surrendering oneself to God for definition.*

I feel true spiritual justice is pure love and unity and any other form of justice is man made.

Am I to understand your discussion is meant to be religious or spiritual in nature?

peaCe lOve & Light

:-) Doug

I do agree with the essence of your opening statement, and, accept the analogy that came with it. Man and nature were created to be two separate systems that work with one another for the mutual benefit of the other. This is what the creator of everything did intend. Much of the remainder of your post, I say with humility, I do not agree with.

You say that we are not functioning in synchronous harmony with nature because ills and misfortune are a part of mankind's daily existence...that in order for the CREATORS promise to be fully fulfilled on this plane of consciousness, a sort of utopia has to happen where no one suffers, no tragedy, there's no sickness, no hardship, etc. Since this post started off with analogy I'd like to give one of my own. I liken the access of heaven for mankind (if he/she deserves the access) to that of the rigor's one must go through to becoming a doctor (of medicine for the sake of this discussion). Anyone that knows how strenuous this training is knows that not everyone has what it takes to come out on the other end with the title. Far too many start the training, but, fall by the wayside not completing it (quit, fail, succumb to outside forces, etc.). It's a part of the system....an unfortunate but integral, necessary part, needed to filter out those that would (in essence) be responsible for the very lives of all patients that they'll see after receiving the certifications required to practice. Who on this site want someone performing an emergency appendectomy on them by someone that hadn't been tried and tested many times over? The comparison between being able to achieve a doctors degree and a state of complete and total bliss, where no fear, worry, or trouble exists is minuscule...I know. I submit though, that heaven isn't (and shouldn't) be an existence that man should aspire to reach without trial, tribulation, struggle, etc. Mankind should not expect to attain ultimate and total bliss without being TESTED in order to obtain it.

I do agree that life HAS to have opposites...it's the only way mankind has of determining right from wrong, up from down, good from bad, etc. G-D (for reverence) made mankind the highest of creation (by giving him limited free will) so that they would have the many differing and opposites poles to choose from. G-D being the ultimate light though does not mean that darkness is the opposite of that. Darkness IS simply the absence of light...this is a scientific certainty. The phenomena of black holes in space have the "sucking in" of matter that you mention, but, they LACK light...they aren't the opposite of it. Every evil thing that man does is an act of his/her own free will. Not one creation that G-D created is evil...not even that that is the ultimate of evil. Evil is a manifestation of that creations LIMITED free will...even those freely committed evil acts will (in the end) be called into account and made to answer for all that has been done in their name by those that made them.

Death is simply a passageway...a door that will open for everything living eventually. It's nothing to be fearful of, nothing to worry about. The thing that all of mankind has to worry about isn't death. On the contrary, man needs to worry about life, and what they do with it while they have it. The purpose of mankind isn't to live on this plane, keep your nose clean, stay out of trouble and live until your life is no more. The TRUE purpose of man is to make a difference...do something to make the world better for your being here. That doesn't mean always doing monumentally life changing things. If we as a part of G-D's creation, exert the least bit of effort to make other parts of the creation better off, we will be living up to our purpose while here. An old saying is,"even a smile is charity". That, in some cases, is all that's needed in order to be life changing to someone that we come across. A wonderful lady I recently met and talked with (Dr. Evelyn Bethune) said it best,"if you're not doing something that you're willing to die for...you're wasting G-D's time".

In summation I submit that mankind's purpose isn't to obtain heaven on earth. Mankind's purpose, on this plane of existence, is to do all that he/she can in order to receive the PRIVILEGE of having access to it. Everyone will (while here) see glimpses of it. This is needed in order to stay motivated to strive for it. Struggle in life is good...hardship and strife shape mankind to become valuable to MANKIND alone...G-D needs nothing that our small imaginations can muster up. The trails that we all go through are (another analogy) like that of fine diamonds. The more value a diamond has is determined by the amount of outside forces that have been exerted against it before it's found. A rare diamond CANNOT be made without going through extreme pressure. That's what G-D wants all of his creation to become...the best and most valuable diamonds that they can be. That should be our goal (as the highest of creation) as well.

Peace&blessings always

Rafeal, Once again a reminder that this is not a Christian group. Threads for preaching purposes are not welcome here. Personally, I see in no way how this thread can be equated with justice. This is a group whose primary focus is spirituality, which includes christianity but is in not in any way exclusive to it. Is this thread open for all religious people coming from different backgrounds to speak openly without the pushing of biblical dogma? This group is dedicated to global, multicultural and world views on consciousness and spirituality! This thread should be in a Christian Group not here, and if you are not open to other views, I will ask you to quit posting. This is a universal group open for respecting multicultural and spiritual/philosophical world views. TO ALL: This group welcomes worldviews on spirituality and consciousness! Thank you..

I believe you might be taking two points and mixing them into one, Though this might make some kind of logic it might become confusing. Ont the one hand there are many different ways of explaining justice, depending of what you are evaluating, judging a car and the judgment from God are two very different things. The car issue, there is a legal system in our country (thank God) where we can attempt to find "justice". When it comes to "God's" justice, mmmm it's a different story. It could be easier to explain in the terms of, we are children trying to explain why our father does the things he does. When a child is told to go to bed early or to take a bath, he might respond "it is not fair". Well, when we attempt to explain why God allows things to happen, I believe it is similar. My humble opinion. Lets keep oranges with oranges and apples with apples. unless we want fruit salad :-)

Let me converse with you since you appear to be more humble. However, I will probably be deleted from here but let give it a shot. Justice is being loose from tension. Everything works in harmony. You mentioned that in terms of God is a different story but my humble opinion is that is the same because justice originates in God. When I mentioned the example of the car, what I said was that God did everything perfect to work in harmony with Him. No sicknesses, no suffering, no cancer, no poverty or miseries. The natural world was under the authority of man. That was perfect justice. Once man failed nature lost its father and you know the rest of the story. But you know what? That is what I believe until somebody clear up my mind if I am wrong. I have no problem listening to other comments, all kind of comments.

You also mentioned that God allows things to happen and is true, He has to allow them here on earth because we allow them. This is more meat but I dont want to make this more Bible base more than what it is. The Boss is watching me.

Rafael,

Thank you for your ackowledgement.

Love & Hugs,

Doug