Trumping Tricky Dick's 18 minute gap

wcbiv
wcbiv
Founding Member

Posted: Dec 7, 07 4:03pm

Boomers are old enough to remember that it was not the Watergate break-in that demolished the Nixon Presidency it was the cover-up that followed. Today, we learned that tapes of an interrogation of Al Queda detainees (love the language play) were destroyed and hence unavailable to investigating parties.

Link...

http://adelphia.net/news/read.php?ps=1018&id=14220331&_LT=HOME_LARSDCCL3_UNEWS

We have been "dancing around" this torture and surveillance program and all manner of spinmeisters have tried to dress up the pig including;

Former AG Gonzales trying to get Ashcroft to sign a hospital bed permission slip.

*He refused and Gonzales forgot that it happened

Renditioning detainees to countries where laws about treatment are more convenient to those intent on avoiding U.S. law.

*Frankly, I don't get that the venue changes our own responsibilities

We have the various statements from our President who assures us In the United States we don't torture people

*Not exactly the categorical denial most seek, but it sounds like a denial

Now, the smoking gun,...a video tape. We can now see for ourselves what "torture is or isnt"...but wait it's been destroyed.

Through the years I have met people in the intelligence business. I have also met people who started as security people in various venues and worked their way up the ladder.

The intelligence people I know say there are far more effective means for getting accurate (important word there) information than torture.

When we step outside of our own tenets to "protect America" we forget the costs of such convenient red light/green light blinking.

This is a conflict of ideology and in the battle for ideas you dont advertise that your tenets dont matter and think your going to convince anyone. The terrorist if nothing else seem committed to the tenets of their lunacy with no mitigation or compromise.

I have no interest in detaining people for 6 years with no access to a process.

As for the terrorist scum,...if they stumble into Iraq to stir up trouble and get shot in the process fine by me, less paperwork. If we want to vanquish extremism and decimate the Jihadists we should look to the target rich environment along the Afghan/Pakistan border and hone our sharpshooting skills.

However, If we gather up folks and detain them...we should prosecute them as terrorists and since they dont don a uniform...give them the execution/martardom they yearn for; AFTER they have access to due process (maybe not civilian courts, but an adversarial process that separates the bad guys from the also rans.

If we need to do something else,...our leaders should have the will and the communication skill to level with the public and make clear our intent and explain same. We arent soft on terrorists, but we are long on fairness and thinking "there by the grace of God go I".

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5 Comments // 2 Members
Fromz
Fromz
Founding Member

Posted: Dec 7, 07 4:28pm

Boomers are old enough to remember that it was not the Watergate break-in that demolished the Nixon Presidency it was th...

Do I laugh now or later?

How much did you whine about Val Plame being "outed?"

Now you complain because tapes that could have outed active CIA ops were destroyed to prevent just that.

wcbiv
wcbiv
Founding Member

Posted: Dec 7, 07 4:39pm

Do I laugh now or later?

How much did you whine about Val Plame being "outed?"

Now you complain because tapes that...

The larger point is that in an idealogic battle, you dont cede the high ground appearing weak-knee'd on principals.

If we think we have to do "x" to gain an egde and "x" is counter to our tenets,...which is more important?

However, as to your tactical question as to how to do the right thing and prudent thing...

Obscure ID via "digitized faces" on the video.

Fromz
Fromz
Founding Member

Posted: Dec 7, 07 4:57pm

Do I laugh now or later?

How much did you whine about Val Plame being "outed?"

Now you complain because tapes that...

If you can digitize it, I can undigitize it. It is that simple.

Same with voices.

Further, the CIA had no reason to believe some moron would ask for the tapes so they had no known reason to keep them around once their usefullness had expired.

As mumble mumble years of working with highly classified material taught me, the best way to protect no-longer-needed materials is to completly destroy them.

Fromz
Fromz
Founding Member

Posted: Dec 7, 07 5:06pm

Do I laugh now or later?

How much did you whine about Val Plame being "outed?"

Now you complain because tapes that...

You may remember those who violated the Geneva Convention at Abu Gharab were punished by our own system.

Since I have a copy of the Convention open, here is the relevant section:

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

Despite McCain's comments, waterboarding does not violate those terms. If there is an article related to rendition, I'm unaware of it. Let me know of you find one.

wcbiv
wcbiv
Founding Member

Posted: Dec 7, 07 8:43pm

Boomers are old enough to remember that it was not the Watergate break-in that demolished the Nixon Presidency it was th...

The link below suggests that the reason for the destruction was to protect the agents from legal consequences,..not to protect "our finest" from physical harm.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/washington/07intel.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

In the coming days and weeks more will be revealed but,...I'm long enough in the tooth and gray enough in the hair to know there is a lot of smoke...which indicates a blaze of sorts.

True patriots do not line up blindly behind the broo-ah-ah of marching legions. True patriots embrace the constitution and recognize that sometimes the greatest enemies are those from within. Enemies whose motivations maybe pure but too quickly trade principals for perceived safety.

Our constitution is the instrument of long lasting safety...take a leap of faith that the founders knew what they were doing.

The shining beacon of hope is our liberty and our respect for the rule of law. We have been the worlds prize and can be again if we reject compromises in the name of "safety" which ironically bring no safety at all.