As I've grown older I have become more and more cynical about religion. I grew up as a catholic, going to a school in which, every time you asked the time, the nuns would answer, "It's time to love God!" Good luck if you had a bus to catch!
I envy people who have faith in something, who believe in God or in the Universe, or something supreme. Up to some time ago I would tell you -- I'm an agnostic; now, I believe I am tending toward the atheistic side. I don't like labeling myself an atheist; yet, I don't see how I wouldn't.
In the past I used to think, "Well, what would be the meaning of all this if there were no God?" Now my thoughts gyrate around, "Why must there be any meaning?"
Is anyone like me, in conflict for not knowing what to believe? Is this because as we grow older we begin to realize our own mortality? Do you feel guilty for not being a believer? (I know, the guilty part is a strong reminder of my religious upbringing...)
Although I am in conflict, I resent when someone tries to impose their religion on me. Who are they to feel they are the ones who hold the real truth? Why can they be so presumptuous thinking that they are right and I am wrong? They don't know any more than I do about the existence of a supreme being. What separates us is merely the faith they have and I don't.
Posted: Sep 13, 07 9:05pm
You're definitely not alone in this boat. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness but I never really felt my heart was in it, and I was never very good at at (or good enough, anyway). I've still got a pretty strong belief in some kind of diety, but I'm really not sure what. I don't really care for the label agnostic though; I still feel there's some unfathomable intelligence out there that we've placed into little boxes for our convenience and because it's bigger than we are. Lately I've gotten interested in Buddhism, since it seems to mesh with what I know about science better than other religions.
I don't think it was my own mortality so much that made me question what I'd been taught as it was just a slow realization that I'd grown out of those clothes and they were binding me now. Guilt? Oh yeah. I think that's inevitable because organized religion relies on guilt to maintain control. And there's sadness too. It's a loss of belonging to a community, even if you don't really fit in with them very well. I feel now like it's the constant search that matters, the constant questioning of the self and the external world, striving to be a better person, and to treat others well, to make the world a little better while I'm here. If that isn't a definition of worshipping God, I'm not sure what is.
Posted: Sep 14, 07 10:06am
Thanks a lot for the comment. I think you are absolutely right -- striving to be a better person is what helps us find meaning to all this. It's what helps us get closer to divinity, whatever that is.
Posted: Sep 21, 07 3:58am
.didn't we have all of these conversations in high school, like at 3am, after the twilite zone signed off? My bottom line is... anyone presumptious enough to tell anyone else that they know the TRUTH is (especially when it is based on a 2000 year old text written by a committee who to a man believed just as ferverently that the earth was flat)... is dangerous.
Posted: Mar 5, 08 2:59pm
I'm sorry Kathie! I call you "girl" all the time - my bad. But I mean it in a "sisterhood" way, not demeaning way. I'll try to do better.{:-)
Peace, Jo
Posted: Mar 18, 08 10:14pm
I'm gonna go to an old Latin style Catholic church on Good Friday, I think. But first I'm gonna smoke a big ol' bowl, just so I can really get with the saints, the apostles, the disciples, the stained glass, the incense, the incantations. If I'm lucky I'll expire right there in the pew, on my knees, churnin' out Hail Marys, and get beamed right up to heaven.
That's my plan. I'll let y'all know how it works out.
Posted: Mar 19, 08 9:34pm
Ya know we could all really simplify everything if we just converted to Christianity. Or Islam. Or Judaism. Or Hinduism, Buddhism or any other religion.
Each of these religions have detailed owner's manuals on how to live, think, eat, drink, behave etc. etc. etc.
Take out the guesswork! Sign up, sign on! All questions answered, plus a ticket to eternal life! What could be more simple? They don't call it the "flock" for nothin', ya know!
Ever the trouble-maker,
Tweedledum
Posted: Sep 14, 07 5:37am
I have a very deep and personal relationship with God and it helps bring meaning and purpose to my life every day. Although there are some days I get really pissed off at God. I am not arrogant enough to believe that it is the right path for everyone--just for me. No one holds the real truth and whatever you are wondering about, it is not wrong. Not all of us people of faith want you to follow our ways. These are your questions and your internal conflicts. I have found in many other discussions and posts, the tbd community has had many diverse ideas and suggestions. I'm assuming you'll get the same here and I hope they are helpful I also hope that where ever you find yourself in the end, it brings joy and peace to your heart.
Posted: Sep 14, 07 10:28am
Thanks for the tip about other ideas in the tbd community. I will certainly look for them.
Posted: Sep 14, 07 6:25am
I think that we lose faith only if we expect God to make our lives richer or safer or happier or provide us with what we pray for. If you look at God as the supreme power that holds together all the various and sundry forces and creatures in the universe, then you will not expect a personal God to be your butler, handmaiden, genii in a bottle or sherpa.
The world is better off for the existence of religion because, at its best, it brings people together under a system of common beliefs that make life less lonely. It is the support of a belief system and the people in it that allow us to get through the tough times. Whether you believe in a round yon virgin or a guy in a white robe with a long beard, it matters not. It seems that since the dawn of mankind, we, as a species, have had a need to believe in something rather than see ourselves as a lonely figure in a dark universe.
I firmly believe in God. I do not believe that God is my butler, handmaiden or genii in a bottle who, if I rub Him or Her the right way, I'll get riches, a movie star wife and a guaranteed pass to an afterlife with seventy two virgins and an endless supply of Dove Bars.
I believe that there is sense to the organization of the universe and that without some intelligent force, there would be no here. My God doesn't speak to Jimmy Swaggart or any of the "pass the loot" TV preachers. Nor, does He or She command followers to strap on bombs and try to kill my children and themselves.
I believe that my innate intelligence came from an organized way of creating man that passes the good stuff along. It wasn't invented by man. I believe that we were given free will to make choices good or bad and that there are consequences arising out of those choices. I also believe that the world was made out of a mix of chaos and rainbows and that part of our job as master of this planet (for now) is to minimize that chaos by electing not to add to it with our irrationality which lies just below the surface and by maximizing the rainbows by bringing some good to those with whom we have contact.
To sum it up into a tractate: God gave us our place on this earth, the capacity to invent tools for good or bad, the ability to empathies with others, possessing feelings that can lead us to positive or negative decisions. I take comfort in these things because I have free will to a greater degree than dogs or whales or snakes or snails. They live out a destiny that is completely encoded. When they see prey they have to act. When they see danger they are limited to the tools within their body. As humans we not only can manipulate our environment but we can raile at God and blame Him for our own deficiencies. Dogs (dog, by the way is the reverse spelling of God, if that means anything) can only do what dogs do and have no one to blame other than themselves - unless they are Snoopy!
In any case, relax. Enjoy life if it is enjoyable. If it is not, it's on you to improve it. Don't sit waiting for some deity to do it for you. You'll still be waiting when the ship sails.
Posted: Sep 14, 07 10:31am
Oh, it's not that I don't enjoy life because I've been questioning the existence of a supreme being. No, please, don't get me wrong.
If there's something I believe is in the energy of the cosmos and the nature around us. Whenever I feel hopeless, it only takes looking at a tree or the ocean, or, most importantly, the smile on my children's faces, that I think life is amazingly beautiful, no matter what is hidden in the backstage.
Posted: Sep 14, 07 10:39am
Darn, I like the "endless supply of Dove bars" part!
Milt, I think my view of God is pretty similar to yours, very like the Divine Watchmaker, but I'm more and more disillusioned with organized religion. So much of it seems to inspire the faithful to the opposite qualities they should be practicing, in the name of power, conformity, and social control. And as you point out, often that "personal god" is an excuse for a lack of personal responsibility. There have been some awful things done in the name of religion, as we all know. I used to say I was in it for God and not the people, but sometimes the people make it pretty impossible to stick around. I think that's what finally got me: the narrow mindedness.
On the other hand, most holy books are really good guides to decent, civilized behavior, if people people paid more attention to them and stopped focusing on ways to twist their message into one that gave them the upper hand.
Posted: Oct 9, 07 3:51pm
Milt..
Loved your response. I couldn't have said it better myself. In reading all of these responses, I notice that many readers get upset when those preach the bible to them, or start quoting, etc,. I have to say that I am not a religious person, nor do I go to church every Sunday. I do believe in God, am a little confused about religion, etc,. But definitely believe in God. I do not get upset when people preach to me, or quote things from the bible. Not because i already believe in God, but because I take it as they are just expressing their own beliefs. As those who do not believe, express their non-belief. I simply learn from everyone I listen to. Its makes us think more. I hope that those who dislike people that quote the bible, be inquisitive. Ask about that quote, open their minds to what could be, or let it make them confirm their non-belief. But we all have our own way of thinking and could learn from one another whether we agree or disagree. Thank you for your post.. I really like the way you expressed yourself and your thoughts on this topic. Very inspiring to say the least!
Posted: Nov 27, 07 8:58pm
"i think that we lose faith only if we expect God to make our lives richer or safer or happier or provide us with what we pray for. If you look at God as the supreme power that holds together all the various and sundry forces and creatures in the universe, then you will not expect a personal God to be your butler, handmaiden, genii in a bottle or sherpa."
What good is a god who doesn't make our lives richer or safer or happier or provide us with what we pray for?
If you look at god as "the supreme power that holds together all the various and sundry forces and creatures in the universe" then you can find him in any physics text.
My religion, I'm a Pastafarian.
Posted: Sep 17, 07 1:41pm
I agree with you about feeling resentful if someone tries to impose their beliefs on me; yet, I am envious that they have found the "answer" for them. I have been, forever, searching for my "answer" and still have not found it. When another is telling me about their beliefs, I look deep to see if its talk or they really walk the walk. Its so cool to act like you have all the answers, but quite another thing to live them. I am not giving up my search. Maybe for me, the "answer " is the search.
Posted: Sep 17, 07 2:20pm
No one has all the answers - even those of us who may be observant practitioners of one faith or another. I think that you are not alone. For most of us the answer is in the search. The questions and the struggle are more important than the answers.
Posted: Sep 17, 07 2:27pm
I think you've summed it up precisely... for some, the search does become the answer. I've been firmly established in some variety of Protestant Christianity my whole life. But it hasn't stopped me from questioning - God, my life, the universe, you name it. God's big enough for questions - even those really angry ones that I come up with.
The difference for me, now that I'm older, is that I don't feel the need to have all the answers any more. I really wanted the universe to make sense on MY terms when I was younger - after all, I was reasonably bright, and surely God gave me this brain for a reason!!??! ]
I'm much more comfortable with the mystery these days... not only do I think there are many paths up the mountain, but I also think there are days when even my own path is shrouded in fog. I'm just always interested in others on the journey.
Posted: Sep 20, 07 10:42am
Isn't that funny? I too am envious when I see people praying with so much faith. I think, "God (notice whom I invoke here! :-), these people are blessed because they believe something or someone is watching over them. That must be so comforting!"
Yet, I remember when I used to go to mass that I was there physically, and my body language would truly tell people I was talking to God. Little they knew -- I was thinking about a cute boy I had seen at school or something like that. And then, of course, when I realized what I was actually thinking, I would feel guilty. My goodness, I felt I was such a sinner and hell was just waiting for me.
Posted: Mar 2, 08 5:31pm
Great comment, "the answer is in the search". That leaves us open to all perspectives.
Posted: Sep 17, 07 2:22pm
I sense that your issue is not with God but with religion. Religion is getting in the way of your understanding of God. I understand you completely and sympathize.
You will have to anwer the "big" questions yourself and the only advice I can give you is to find a path that does not involve an organization or body of thought dictated by others. Find your own personal philosophy. Write your own book. Don't be a follower.
Posted: Sep 20, 07 9:23am
I have so enjoyed reading the comments. I have questioned this all my life. IN fact, I came across a theme I worte when I was 16 and I was floored. I could have written it yesterday. The amazing thing was that some of my fears have come to pass. I recently read "The Secret" and think I may have predesposed myself to the fears that have come true. LOL
Posted: Sep 20, 07 10:44am
Thanks for the helpful comment. You know, I'm a yoga and meditation practitioner and when I'm doing either (or both together), I do feel in closer contact with the divine. So yes, I guess the search is personal. I cannot be a follower if I don't know where the crowd is heading to.
Posted: Sep 20, 07 11:14pm
* includes photos
The thing I try always remember is that religion is a man-made institution trying to help me get in touch with God. Being man-made, by definition it is imperfect, despite its intentions. Human mistakes are made, with humans trying to discern God's Will.
Have you ever played the 'Round the Raspberry Bush' game where you whisper in someone's ear a story or a statement, then that person whisper's in another's ear, who in turn whispers in another's ad infinitum until it gets back to you? I know I've never gotten back what I whispered originally - most times it is way off!
Now, just imagine 20 centuries of Jesus whispering in Peter's ear (the rock of the Catholic Church, and all the whispers to the Popes since). Then the whispers through all the Reformation/Protestants and all the sects and denominations since. That's a lot of religious 'Raspberry' bushes... So, given human's imperfections, I try withhold judgement about another's beliefs... God isn't finished with me yet, and I've got enough logs in my eyes to spend much time worrying about the splinter(s) in yours.
Spirituality on the other hand, is a direct line to God, a gift presented to us with only our imperfect understanding between us and the Holy Spirit.
This God of my understanding, loves each and every one of us He presents Himself in a way I can get to know Him (OK Her, to some) one-to-one. Whether recovering fundamentalist, lapsed Catholic, Buddhist, Confucianist, Muslim, Zaroastian, Manitou, or pagan trying to worship the gods in the forest, God is more than trying to meet us half-way. All we have to do is reach out...
Jesus gave us the 12th Commandment : "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself." Well, I've learned if I spend too much time beating myself up with my barbwired-wrapped baseball bat of guilt, remorse, anger, betrayal and bitterness, there isn't much of me to love. Makes it harder to love my neighbor, but easier to loathe my neighbor and his/her religion when I'm loathing myself. IMHO... WWJD...
Be brave, keep striving... you'll make it!
Posted: Jan 16, 08 9:46pm
Mr. Thinking Stone:
My issue also is not with God but with religion. My husband and I were settled nicely in this church and one Sunday my husband begins tohave these issues with several things in the church..He became really upset and joined a new church and it all began again. I understood what he was upset about but that is not why I go to church. You will find issues in any church you go to. As I told my husband, you go by yourself and have your issues and I will stay home and enjoy myself with the Lord and please don't bring your people issues home. I enjoyed being with other Christians but they do have issues. God Bless All Of Us
Posted: Mar 2, 08 5:36pm
Excellent Thinking Stone!
Posted: Sep 20, 07 10:30am
I've had a relationship with "Jesus-God-Holy Spirit" since I was ten years old. I can remember the moment to this day. Exactly what the room looked like, who was there with me, how I felt, and how I have felt since.
At no time have I forced or brought up my beliefs, faith, or so on, unless someone has asked me directly too.
It is ashame that any individual would force an opinion, especially a believer.
Another item that bothers me however is, that individuals who do not believe compare those who do to a hand full of misguided believers or religious freaks. Assumptions are made without a full understanding and judgments passed. I know, there are some believers who do the same thing to nonbelievers! It all makes me angry!
Even believers struggle at times with their faith, questioning! The truths in religion, faith, life, evolution, spirits, life after, God, scriptures, history, devil, and nature, they are hard to discern for us all.
Good luck, and try not to be so hard on yourself!
Posted: Sep 20, 07 10:49am
Thank you for reminding me I've been too hard on myself. I guess this is part of having grown up within a religion in which we're all sinners, no matter what.
Why is it that I become so angry when people forward religious chains or something like that to me? I think I'm appalled by the presumptuousness that I must share their faith or else I'm not worthy.
Posted: Dec 9, 07 1:41pm
What about the assumption that the atheists do not have any morals.?
I was brought up as Catholic but I do not believe in God anymore. What I am getting now from such believers is that I do not have any morals because I am an atheist.
In a name of God people have been killed and woman mutilated.
My point is that a religion and faith in God do not give you a license to judge nonbelievers.
Posted: Sep 20, 07 10:53am
By the way, has anyone heard of the http://www.beliefnet.com/ website? It has helped me quite a bit. Among other things, you can take a quiz to test what is your faith based on your answers related to your beliefs (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html)
Posted: Sep 20, 07 11:32am
Nice site. Generally those kinds of sites are geared to one religious practice or another. This is very well done and quite inclusive. Thanks for passing this info along.
Posted: Sep 21, 07 1:24am
* includes photos
SIN. What an ugly, hateful three-letter word! There is no such word in the ORIGINAL Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, or Latin.
The Bible, as originally written had phrases: "Falling short", "Missing the mark", "Less than perfect"...
Then came Gutenberg and his printing press. Ink and paper was very expensive. It was also the time of archery and bows and arrows. Everyone knew then, that to sin was to miss the bullseye. Fall short, miss the mark, less than perfect score. How much easier to save space and ink, when sin - a tiny three letter word - stood for falling short of being perfect. Adam and Eve were created being 'less perfect' than God. Everyone back then knew we fell a little short of hitting the mark, because we weren't perfect archers.
Perfection was never the goal for approaching God and living in His lovingkindness. The STRIVING for perfection, knowing full well we'd fall short, miss the mark, is all God asked of us.
Unfortunately, this is now the 21st Century and archery had gone by the wayside. We are left with the guilt inducing three letter - sin - that was an archery term, not the Word of God as revealed to his scribes and prophets.
When I first used my hunting recurve bow, I couldn't handle the 75 pound pull. I had to work up to it. When I first started out on my 25 pound bow, it took a lot of strength-building to draw a 30-inch arrow to full draw and hold it more than a few seconds without trembling. Let alone try to hit the target 50 feet away; never mind striking the bullseye. It takes practice, and working up through the weights to get there.
Even Robin Hood needed practice to hit the bulls-eye. So pick up your bow and arrows and prepare to 'sin' a lot, Maid Marian/LadyImpostor!
Too bad Maxine doesn't have an archery set, huh?
Posted: Mar 3, 08 4:40pm
Yes - I really like beliefnet because of it's inclusiveness. I have even shared some of the material from it with my pastor.
My background is protestant, but right now I am really drawn toward taoism. Change your thoughts, change your life by Wayne Dyer is a nice introduction.
Posted: Sep 20, 07 11:16am
This is an interesting discussion. I am in the same boat with FemaleImpostor: raised catholic, now a non-believer. It was a fairly painful realization that I did not believe what the church wanted me to profess; not only about its own nature but also in regard to god and heaven and hell and all that stuff -- certainly not about creation.
My mother always had a very strong faith and talked to me often about going to church and praying. My answer was that if there is an omniscient god, then my "faking" belief would be transparent to him/her; if there is no god, then what's the point.
I believe that being good to others and seeking to make life better for as many folks as possible is a good ethical compass. That can be done with our without a god. Believing in god does not make one good; and disbelieving does not make one evil.
Posted: Sep 20, 07 11:57am
That is so true! Whenever I go to church I feel as if I'm hiding the candy behind me but I have chocolate all over my face. :)
Posted: Sep 20, 07 4:42pm
Hi. My first point is that organized religion is not
Christianty. Nor are doctrines or rituals the same as Christianty.
As a former Catholic, I understand that type of upbringing. Catholics do not believe that the entire bible, word for word, is of God. My second point is,
the bible is the word of GOD! The word of our God shall stand forever. (Isaiah 40:8)
You do not have to believe in heaven and hell,
heaven and hell do exsist. You will choose where you will spend eterinity. I choose heaven by being saved. What are you choosing? Romans 10:10
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:9 That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
The bible does not say to join a special denomination to be saved. The bible does not say you must attend service every Sunday to be saved. ( The bible does encourage that we assemble oursevlves, but that is not required for salvation ie being saved.)
All you need to do to be saved is say out loud,
Jesus, I believe in you. I believe in my heart that you were raised from the dead. That is it. Some people have a longer prayer they might like to pray with a new christian, but God knows your heart.
Hope this helps someone. Mary Beth
Posted: Sep 27, 07 8:06am
Marys!
I love your last sentence!
2005 was an eye opening year for me. I was physically helpless due to knee and back problems.
At that time, Katrina took everything we owned and I got to watch people crying out loud to God where there homes had once been. I saw grief stricken people of all ages and colors searching for loved ones. My situation was "taken advantage of" by a friend.And, I was extremely pissed!
We moved and my life has changed. At the time, I saw some "Christians" jumping right in and helping. I saw others either taking advantage or helping only those of their faith.
My wife, who was raised in the Soviet Union where the official religion was "Atheism" handled it quite well. She stoically did all the heavy work I could not do. Later, she said "God give you Katrina"."Katrina give you back your life". Now that we are settled someplace else and I am much better
(I walk upright like a man instead of stooped like a homonid or ape), I am taking good care of myself as I NEVER want to be helpless again. I see she was right.
Posted: Mar 19, 08 9:09am
Marys - this is right on!