Yes, if we did not have it our country would be on it's knees in despair. They do all the things we won't and if they stop doing it we couldn't afford to live here and we would have to move to Mexico. Bill
What the "masses" are slow to realize is that the "idea" beginning with the Reagan era is to contract out government work. That morphed into jobs being sent to other country's (when was the "accent" of the last help desk you called?).
We are rapidly becoming a 2 class society. The illegals are here because somebody wants them here. I'll leave that for you to guess who. Work is not the same as it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. Humans are successively shaped to serve the corporate machine at lower wages with more requirements.: Drug tests, personality tests, sales quotas for store clerks, admonishments or even firings for not kowtowing to an abusive customer, lie detector tests (even for volunteers).
I speak to illegals (in their own language) pretty regularly. The ones who abuse them most are those of their own nationality. The "sleeping masses" do not realize that one day (maybe soon) they will be in the same boat as the illegals. My wife is here legally from Russia. She speaks English with an accent. Nearly every day somebody tells her "I want to speak to somebody who speaks English".Her English is good. But, she DOES have an accent.
Just keep waving those flags, sporting those ribbons and everything will be " Honkey Dorey" until the day people wake up to find out they are not quite as free as they thought. The illegals I have known have a "work ethic". I have not see as many US citizens work as hard as the illegals they bitch about.
whitemanitou, you mentioned how so called Real Americans demand an English speaking person instead of your wife.
I knew a woman that worked at an assisted living facility. Many of her co-workers were Fillippinos and legally in this country. But one day this elderly white narrow minded resident asked this woman when she was going to get her citizenship. Just assuming that she was here illegally.
The caregiver was a Native American Indian.
I asked her if she told the elderly woman to get out of HER country.
I agree with happydays comment: The current administration is America's biggest problem
Cheap labor from south of the border is an American resource the same as Arizona copper or Florida oranges.(Why are your crops rotting in the fields Colorado?).
I've worked in restaurants here in the south west for 20 years and I can promise you every immigrant is the parent or grandparent of a mainstream all-American.
I understand that immigration has different effects in different parts of the country and in different industries but demonizing illegals is wrong. It's a political trick, "blame the blanks" works every time.
I believe in immigration laws, because Mexico is sucking the blood out of us. I live on a border town and our hospital are going bankrupt because they are coming here to have children just so they can stay. I understand that they only want a better life who doesn't but there is a right way and a wrong way. I am mexican myself but my mother came here and became a citizen and lived her life out as such.
We need to change thing either offer them a pass to work at the jobs that people won't do or say no to all.
Do you know what they do to people coming into their country from down south they shoot them on site trying to cross there border. But we just keep letting them in, and the ones who are trying to come to this country legally get screwed by there own. Something need to change but I don't know how to make it chance.
The illegals are getting for free what we pay for in our taxes medical and social security. Granted they work hard they also have families to support but they are a burden to our economy. Taking for granted what we pay for. I agree that GW has to be one of the worst presidents to ever govern this country. His reason to go to Iraqi was a personal vendetta for his father and not to find WMD weapons. That was just his excuse. We are fighting a war that cant be won. The only lose in this war is the lose of our young soldiers and the neglect that our government has towards the vets who do return home.
Am I the only one who finds it sad some people, not just you, rtbike, have so much personal hatred for the President they have to spew it in wherever they go? Even in ways unrelated to the topic.
Billyray, dispair is the wrong word--should be praying. Praying for relief from cheaters, gangsters and other malversion that are created by a people unwilling to adapt (basic definition of intellegence).
Take a good look at where they came from-- if they are doing such a good job why is 44% of their wealth coming from us?
According to the latest CNN poll forty six percent believe in ghosts but only twenty five percent approve of the actions of our government.
Since more believe in what most of us can't see and most of us don't want to believe what we do see I'm not sure illegal immigration is a problem at all.
The current administration is America's biggest problem. They haven't got a clue on what to do about illegals. "Illegal" means it's against the law, yet there's talk about possibly offering monetary assistance to these criminals from programs that we law-abiding citizens are paying for. The administration also has our young people fighting a war that can't be won. What a mess!!
GWBush will go down as the most disastrous President of this country in its history.I (and of course can not prove this) believe that the "elections" were won illegally. I am a little suspicious when the state that decided the first election was governed by the winner's brother.
If the DEMS cant win this one, they might as well disband.
I cant even stand to see pictures of GW.If he is on the news, I turn it off. Ditto radio. But my real disgust is with the fools that sing his praises and the airport stormtroopers.We have to be kept "safe" so our freedoms need to be removed in order to do that. I KNOW what is required for air safety after 34 years with the FAA. Bullying, groping thugs are NOT a requirement. BTW, did you ladies know that there are some of the Xray machines that can literally see through your clothes? They want to be "sure" you have nothing "strapped" to your body. My wife tells me of having to be strip searched in Russia under communist rule. It is no big deal for her. What would you have thought of this 20 years ago? Your attitudes have been successively approximated to tolerate fascism. We are THERE! For all you who want to chastise me for my disrespect, forget it. I have already heard it all! Just wave your flags and buy more metallic ribbons for your car. The ideology behind the symbol of the flag has been morphed beyond recognition
GWBush will go down as the most disastrous President of this country in its history.
Are we unaware of Abe Lincoln's violations of the Constitution. Suspensioin of habeas corpus. The largest mass hanging in US history - 38 Sanatee indians hung by Abes personal and specific instructions despite his explicit knowledge their trials violated almost every precept of American law. His list is long and disgusting. And I say this about him as a distant relative.
How about felony perjury by a sitting president, forget that too?
Since you are a conspiracy wacko, don't forget FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen.
I hope you retain your full mental faculties for another 25 years when objective looks at history will show him to be one of our best.
You mentioned the current administration, but I believe it will be the next administration (& more than likely Democrat) that will probably be giving the monetary assistance to the illegals, and blanket amnesty to those that are currently here. I noticed that at least a few people making statements FOR illegal immigration live in the non-border states.
For us in Texas, we do have hospitals closing down because the illegals are using our ERs as an 'office visit', since the law says we cannot ask for payment up front in the ER. They get free treatment, THEN they tell us 'no can pay".
Then there's the ER overcrowding as a result of above. So the extremely sick & hurt people have to wait lengthy time periods in order to be seen (unless they come in via ambulance).
Then the school systems in the area are in heated discussions as to whether Spanish classes should be mandated so we can communicate better with the Hispanic population, and we the people pay for those classes.
Then there are the new immigrants & illegals that somehow pass a drivers test or are driving illegally and without insurance. Again, we pick up the tab for those accidents, the free-use of our freeways, etc.
Then, . . . never mind, the list is mindboggling.
Anyway, I don't mind the 'idea' of immigration, 'cause most of our ancestors got here from another country, and I don't begrudge someone wanting a 'better life', but they need to pay taxes, learn how to drive better, not use our ERs for minor cuts & flus, and learn the language of the country they are invading. Am I wrong? Those of you that are not in border states . . . do you understand? I'm not so sure.
it'd be great if that were true. heh, no greater problem than people coming here to work their butts off while maintaining momentum of the national economy. we can only dream.
no, the nation's biggest problem is corporate accelerated willful ignorance. that whole mess of , um, willfully juvenile entertainment labeled as "news". and "information". not disguised as. merely labeled. 'cos all that extra effort to make things sound rational, sensible, thoughtful, real, aren't necessary when the audience is, ah, willfully engaged in the mass disinformation movement.
hah. much later. i wrote a buncha words, then deleted them because, though i believe them to be relevant and accurate. i couldn't see them adding anything good to the dialogue. but i chose to include the willful ignorance paragraph because ... ..well, because it's a way important concern. and if you read it and think i was talking about you, think again. i was tryin' to talk *to* you. this dialogue thing ain't all that simple. takes practice sometimes, and trial and error stuff.
sort of back to the point. short question, short answer. america's biggest problem is fear. somebody gave a warning about that, few years back now.
"maintainig the momentum" of the BIGGEST BIFURCATION BETWEEN THE HAVES AND HAVE NOTS SINCE RIGHT BEFORE THE GREAT DEPRESSION is not something I would call a Great Economy.
It is neither sustainable, nor in anyone's best interest (including those elitest who current profit fro the practice).
I looked around me to discover what might be missing if all the illegals were to be rounded up and sent somewhere else. I guess I could do without the canned mushrooms and the cranberry juice. Eggs? I could always replace them with Egg Beaters - better for my health anyway. Lettuce is a different matter. What would I put between the American cheese and the mayo on my sandwich? And the mayo has eggs in it .... Hmmmmm.
My condo development has lots of green space. I guess the weeds would gain a great foothold if all the illegals were kicked out of the country.
Now for the real horror ... I would be living in the woods because the illegal Brazilan carpenters, wall builders and painters who made my house happen eleven years ago would not have been here.
Stranger even, a couple of years ago, the small minded people in the town where they live a mile or so from my home created draconian laws limiting landlords from renting to them and they all left. What happened afterward was justice served. The town remained empty, stores went out of business, houses that were available for rent and lay unrented got repo-ed by the bank. That set of laws was ruled unconstitutional this year but too late. Elvis left the building.
There is a problem but it is not that of the many people who came here because jobs were MADE available to them. Almost all of them sent money home to make life better for their families. The percentage of these illegals who became involved with the police, with welfare and with the other systems of our great nation were less than those of our own citizens who supposedly benefit from being a citizen here.
By the way, there are enough "illegals" here to populate the fourth largest state in the country. Perhaps that is the answer ... give them their own state. I would vote for Montana since the population there is less than the illegal population of New Jersey, all the Montanans who didn't want to live in the new state of Bramexvenchilarabia could come live with us in NJ. I know you might have a bit of catching up to do in our schools and complex industries, but what the heck, if the illegals could learn how to speak enough English to buy groceries to feed their kids, the Montanans could learn how to saddle a computer or rope a new pharmaceutical.
right or wrong aside..... I keep reading where this country would fall apart without them because the work they do. In a "Free Enterprise " system.... The labor pool would adjust to the resources available. The big business would not go out of business because the cheap labor left, they would have to adjust their payroll, maybe actually pay a decent wage. The wage difference between the top and bottom would have to narrow from it's 1000%. the prices would not sky rocket because that would mean no one could buy which would defeat the purpose of selling a product or service. it would be hell for a bit but the numbers would adjust so big business could stay in business. Example here in vegas the small business can't find enough help because the growth in casino's looking to hire in the next 2 years has drained the labor force...so they had to increase their wages. They get 10.00 an hour at 7/11........someone would always come up with a way to make a profit. when slavery ended in the US, the cotton did not rot in the fields long..... someone made a replacement out of wood and iron..... the beauty of greed is someone is always there to fill the void at a profit..... as long as You have cheap labor it does not pay to improve...... the work habits of Americans, well that's another story. But than a 40 year old guy working the graveyard shift at 7/11 somewhere making 7.50 an hour is probably not the happiest guy......
I'm always amazed to read about these towns all across America that are busy passing ordinances barring illegals from using town libraries and thier children from using swimming pools. Who are these mean-spirited people?
ann, and the rest of you, do you think that the money they take out of our checks each pay period should be used for their benefit? although i suspect that most are payed under the table, they provide a necessary service and as has been said, generally speaking, they have a greater work ethic than alot of legal citizens. but illegal is illegal. maybe the solution is to make it easier for immigrants to come, work, get in the system, pay taxes, but that still means higher costs for all of us.
when you think of it, the intellecual and emotional child supposedly running this country needs more money for his wars and buddies. by the way, we live in a corporate oligarchy cleverly disguised as a democracy; that's our biggest problem.
they are not always "mean spirited" often they are mis-informed, mis-led to blame something so the true culprit can hide..... Often they are hard working Americans who find it harder and harder everyday to make ends meet with rising prices and deadend jobs. Often they get tired of hearing the whining and complaining of those who haven't earned the right. You have to remember most get their information from TV, news everywhere but the source. Those sources never show you the average hard working person, they dwell on the whiners and complainers, those who are forever wanting something for nothing and they get the impression they are given it at the expense of them. They get tired of hearing how someone who may not contribute to the american dream has so many concerned about their rights yet never once do they see anyone standing in front of the mall asking for donations for the working poor, never are they brought turkey's at thanksgiving, ask if all is ok...... all they get is what they see as the short end of the stick... ask to take more of the burden...... that is what they see, so they try to find blame.... But You can't blame people who the majority of want what anybody wants, to feed their family and have a decent standard of life.....but than what do I know......... I came here 40 years ago not able to speak a word of English and I survived without being given paperwork in German .......
Bruce Springsteen concluded his concert last night with "American Land" - and the words were on the the screen superimposed over the images. Immigration is how my family came here, and his words resonate with me:
I docked at Ellis Island in a city of light and spire
I wandered to the valley of red-hot steel and fire****
We made the steel that built the cities with the sweat of our two hands
And I made my home in the American land
There's diamonds in the sidewalk, there's gutters lined in song
Dear I hear that beer flows through the faucets all night long
There's treasure for the taking, for any hard working man
Who will make his home in the American land
The McNicholas, the Posalski's, the Smiths, Zerillis too**
The Blacks, the Irish, the Italians, the Germans and the Jews
The Puerto Ricans, illegals, the Asians, Arabs miles from home***-*****
Come across the water with a fire down below******
They died building the railroads, worked to bones and skin
They died in the fields and factories, names scattered in the wind
They died to get here a hundred years ago, they're dyin' now
The hands that built the country we're all trying to keep down
I got carried away on an earlier post to this topic and got off track. To answer Leu's question, most are not paid under the table. They have to buy a bogus social security card or have proof that they are trying to get one (I believe it is an ITN number).
If they have to pay SSI, they have to pay medicare.
I dont want to speculate. But, do you have any idea where the funds in the bogus accounts go? They DO go to the government.
My complaint is that the problem is being ignored..
A previous writer was correct. Most send money home to their families and live quite badly. I know this because the place I talk to them is at the Western Union sites. My LEGAL immigrant wife sends most of HER money home to her family. I am her support. The politicians dont want to touch it because it is such a hot potato.
WHY HAS nobody mentioned the fact that the fundamentalist churches bring them over by the thousands from the FSU and get them situated with welfare and stipends? You dont see them in the poorer states. But, I guarantee you will see them in Calif. I know, again, because I spoke to them (in their language) and shopped in their stores.
You should have seen my wife when they were using food stamps to buy Ukrainian delicacy's in the stores in Sacramento. Apparently there is deep seated hatred between the Ukrainians and the Russians, On the Ukrainian side because of Stalin's treatment of them. On the Russian side because I am told they are considered very clever at figuring out the social welfare systems. But, I take my wife's words with a grain of salt.
They all speak Russian and whatever language that was native to their former Soviet state. They would all start to speak Ukrainian when my wife spoke. Apparently they can recognize each other.
Do you really believe that? Is it the illegal part; or the immigration part; or the fact that we don't make immigrants learn our language; or that they're just 'bad' people; or that it's very hard to immigrate legally?
It is SO not our biggest problem. I think most people would agree that the imbecile in charge and his cronies are our biggest problem.
The biggest problem is that the very thing the flag of the United States of America stands for, at least the 'Liberty and Justice for all' part, is being eroded to the point that our freedoms are only superficial.
Our biggest problem is the fact that the top 1% have 21% of the wealth and GWB keeps making policy that is going to make sure that that gets larger, as well as the gap in classes while eliminating the middle one.
Jeff, what makes it more of a horror is that the top one percent cons the next 99 percent into believing anyone can reach the top one percent! Those that have it have many tricks to see to it that almost no one else can get there.
Frankly, they don't have anything I envy. What the hell would I do with a mansion? I am rattling around in my condo. Money? I can eat only three meals a day and i prefer to cook them myself. Vacations are not for me - I'm retired. Life is a vacation. I've been to all the places I wanted to see and a few I didn't.
The top one percent can have it ... just don't conspire to take away what I spent a lifetime earning.
The vast majority of American millionaires are self-made in a single generation, their own.
Here are some facts about them:
Only 19 percent receive any income or wealth of any kind from a trust fund or an estate.
* Fewer than 20 percent inherited 10 percent or more of their wealth.
* More than half never received as much as $1 in inheritance.
* Fewer than 25 percent ever received "an act of kindness" of $10,000 or more from their parents, grandparents, or other relatives.
* Ninety-one percent never received, as a gift, as much as $1 of the ownership of a family business.
* Nearly half never received any college tuition from their parents or other relatives.
* Fewer than 10 percent believe they will ever receive an inheritance in the future.
By one estimate there will be 10 million new millionaires between 2006 and 2016. That's a million new millionaires a year for the mathematically challenged.
It might not be the top 1% but but it makes it clear the game is not rigged as you seem to be claiming.
Speaking of rigged, the top 1% paid over 39% of all income taxes paid in 2005. The top 5% paid a total of 59.67%.
Guess I was wrong. The game is rigged - against the very rich.
Our erosion as as a great nation is not due to the current Administration. It's due to "we the people." Don't put the blame on anyone but the people of this great country.
I'm 'anxious' to experience the "equalization" of all of our citizens as we become more and more socialistic. We used to be a republic, then we went to democracy, now we're heading toward socialism. We did it, and are doing it, to ourselves.
One does not need to give respect to anything that follows the word illegal. Some forward thinking states like Oklahoma have sought to discourage illegal immigration to that state because of the burden of illegals borne by the legal taxpayers of the state. Businesses that hire such illegals face big fines for employing illegals.
Where to start? My great grandfather was sent down to southern Mexico in 1904 by the company he worked for. He was told to establish a rubber plantation, which he did. My blue eyed, blond grandmother remembers riding on the back of a Maya Indian as she traveled up to the finished finca (it still takes 7 hours by horseback to get there). She lived there for 10 years until the revolution. The family fled to Northern California and in the 40's my grandmother (a pilot by then) flew down to reclaim the land and built it anew. Years later, at 14, I traveled down with her and begged to stay in the beautiful area.
That was the beginning of my life in Mexico, where I married and had two children. In the late 80's I returned to the States. I brought my two sons with me and my husband at the time remained working and saving so we could eventually immigrate them all. My children were with me on tourist visas and they were due to expire in just a few weeks. (No, Folks. Children of Americans DO NOT automatically received American citizenship!) I finally found the appropriate phone numbers to call and was told that to immigrate my family, they would have to live in Mexico during the entire process (over a year) and they couldn't cross into the States. I would have to live in the United States, separated from them. My children were young at the time. I am just one of hundreds of thousands of people who were forced into doing things the illegal way. It is appalling, but true. The entire process is so incredibly complex, difficult, and inexplicable to the common lay person, that most must follow the illegal way first.
I'm not a "bleeding" liberal, for those of you who are wondering about the politics in this thread. I'm a moderate and vote on issues after weighing everything from both sides. On this issue, I have seen both sides. The women in my family are DAR's. There was a General in our family during the Civil War. I have also been the only American in a car of 4 family members and treated as though we were the scum of the earth while crossing the border into the US.
I've been to Ellis Island. I've seen what it took to enter this country at the time most of our great grandparents did. My second husband is the grandson of Italian immigrants. The door to their slave labor was wide open and they became successful because all they were required to do was look health, seem mentally alert, know someone in the States whose name they could use as reference, and a few dollars in their pockets for transportation. Do not think for one minute that this current situation can be compared with the one new immigrants now face. When the American government makes a process so cumbersome and so expensive ($4,000 per immigrant plus your lawyer's fees) how do we expect these people to follow the rules?
I respect everyone's views on this matter. My children became American citizens. Both are grown men who are making difference in peoples lives. One son is so important in his endeavor, he's constantly being praised in a local newspaper. I cannot tell you of the expense, the paperwork, the hours upon hours waiting at the various facilities to be interviewed, screened, and the constant fear of being rejected by the country that gave me birth.
Yes, there are huge problems on both sides of this issue. They all must be addressed. Let us be cautious though. When we divide a nation into "US" and "them", we open the door to hatred that is at the root of every genocide in human history. It sounds unreasonable, unthinkable. Do not believe that it cannot happen in this wonderful country though. Ask any survivor from the genocides in Turkey occupied Greece, Turkey itself, Europe during WWII, Croatia, Bosnia, Rwanda, the Sudan, and even in our early history. Let us listen less to the Lou Dobb's and more to the Mother Teresa's of the world and demand that this issue be observed from all sides and then resolved.
Kennette, thank you so much for sharing this with us. So moving and thoughtful. Kudo-ing your contribution didn't go far enough in saying thanks.
One thing about the hardships of previous immigrants, or would-be immigrants, however. Many Jewish refugees of the Nazis were turned away by this country. So harsh treatment, sending people seeking asylum back to their torturers and killers, is not new.
Thank you for that. I figured that it was difficult beyond our imagination to gain citizenship.
I'm neither left, right nor in the middle, I stagger all over the aisle but this is the 'melting pot'. An immigrants criminal record and their wilingness to learn to speak English are the only things that I feel should keep one from gaining citizenship.
Language can be such a prejudicial barrier with man's innate xenophobic nature. I think this is, more than anything, what creates the 'us' and 'them' mentality. The compassion needed or deserved immigrants is 'lost in translation' so to speak.
When I brought my wife over on a fiance visa, I had to mail a folder that weighed 5 lbs by itself. Everything was meticulously labeled certified, translated and separated into sub folders. The estimated cost of $4000 is conservative. I did everything myself and paid for my wife doing the required translation and certification on her end.
The INS (now Homeland Security courtesy of GWB)
had no phone number to contact them. And if there was even one flaw, you had to start the process all over again. After she got here the interviewers were rude and picked everything apart. After that, I had to write my congressman to get them to tell me what was wrong so she could get her first "Green Card". My letters were ignored. And, of course, there was no way to contact the local office by phone. When we went to the local office in Sacramento, we had to be there by 6:00 AM in order to get a number that would enable us to have an audience that day. That was AFTER the congresspersons office wrote them a letter and they "Found" my wife's file.
Posted: Oct 26, 07 7:18pm
Yes, if we did not have it our country would be on it's knees in despair. They do all the things we won't and if they stop doing it we couldn't afford to live here and we would have to move to Mexico. Bill
Posted: Oct 26, 07 8:01pm
What the "masses" are slow to realize is that the "idea" beginning with the Reagan era is to contract out government work. That morphed into jobs being sent to other country's (when was the "accent" of the last help desk you called?).
We are rapidly becoming a 2 class society. The illegals are here because somebody wants them here. I'll leave that for you to guess who. Work is not the same as it was 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. Humans are successively shaped to serve the corporate machine at lower wages with more requirements.: Drug tests, personality tests, sales quotas for store clerks, admonishments or even firings for not kowtowing to an abusive customer, lie detector tests (even for volunteers).
I speak to illegals (in their own language) pretty regularly. The ones who abuse them most are those of their own nationality. The "sleeping masses" do not realize that one day (maybe soon) they will be in the same boat as the illegals. My wife is here legally from Russia. She speaks English with an accent. Nearly every day somebody tells her "I want to speak to somebody who speaks English".Her English is good. But, she DOES have an accent.
Just keep waving those flags, sporting those ribbons and everything will be " Honkey Dorey" until the day people wake up to find out they are not quite as free as they thought. The illegals I have known have a "work ethic". I have not see as many US citizens work as hard as the illegals they bitch about.
Posted: Oct 26, 07 11:04pm
whitemanitou, you mentioned how so called Real Americans demand an English speaking person instead of your wife.
I knew a woman that worked at an assisted living facility. Many of her co-workers were Fillippinos and legally in this country. But one day this elderly white narrow minded resident asked this woman when she was going to get her citizenship. Just assuming that she was here illegally.
The caregiver was a Native American Indian.
I asked her if she told the elderly woman to get out of HER country.
I agree with happydays comment: The current administration is America's biggest problem
Posted: Oct 27, 07 2:02am
Cheap labor from south of the border is an American resource the same as Arizona copper or Florida oranges.(Why are your crops rotting in the fields Colorado?).
I've worked in restaurants here in the south west for 20 years and I can promise you every immigrant is the parent or grandparent of a mainstream all-American.
I understand that immigration has different effects in different parts of the country and in different industries but demonizing illegals is wrong. It's a political trick, "blame the blanks" works every time.
Posted: Nov 24, 07 4:01pm
I believe in immigration laws, because Mexico is sucking the blood out of us. I live on a border town and our hospital are going bankrupt because they are coming here to have children just so they can stay. I understand that they only want a better life who doesn't but there is a right way and a wrong way. I am mexican myself but my mother came here and became a citizen and lived her life out as such.
We need to change thing either offer them a pass to work at the jobs that people won't do or say no to all.
Do you know what they do to people coming into their country from down south they shoot them on site trying to cross there border. But we just keep letting them in, and the ones who are trying to come to this country legally get screwed by there own. Something need to change but I don't know how to make it chance.
Posted: Nov 26, 07 5:11pm
The illegals are getting for free what we pay for in our taxes medical and social security. Granted they work hard they also have families to support but they are a burden to our economy. Taking for granted what we pay for. I agree that GW has to be one of the worst presidents to ever govern this country. His reason to go to Iraqi was a personal vendetta for his father and not to find WMD weapons. That was just his excuse. We are fighting a war that cant be won. The only lose in this war is the lose of our young soldiers and the neglect that our government has towards the vets who do return home.
Posted: Nov 26, 07 5:47pm
Am I the only one who finds it sad some people, not just you, rtbike, have so much personal hatred for the President they have to spew it in wherever they go? Even in ways unrelated to the topic.
Posted: Jan 28, 08 3:43am
Billyray, dispair is the wrong word--should be praying. Praying for relief from cheaters, gangsters and other malversion that are created by a people unwilling to adapt (basic definition of intellegence).
Take a good look at where they came from-- if they are doing such a good job why is 44% of their wealth coming from us?
Posted: Oct 26, 07 8:13pm
According to the latest CNN poll forty six percent believe in ghosts but only twenty five percent approve of the actions of our government.
Since more believe in what most of us can't see and most of us don't want to believe what we do see I'm not sure illegal immigration is a problem at all.
Posted: Oct 26, 07 9:35pm
The current administration is America's biggest problem. They haven't got a clue on what to do about illegals. "Illegal" means it's against the law, yet there's talk about possibly offering monetary assistance to these criminals from programs that we law-abiding citizens are paying for. The administration also has our young people fighting a war that can't be won. What a mess!!
Posted: Oct 27, 07 7:42am
GWBush will go down as the most disastrous President of this country in its history.I (and of course can not prove this) believe that the "elections" were won illegally. I am a little suspicious when the state that decided the first election was governed by the winner's brother.
If the DEMS cant win this one, they might as well disband.
I cant even stand to see pictures of GW.If he is on the news, I turn it off. Ditto radio. But my real disgust is with the fools that sing his praises and the airport stormtroopers.We have to be kept "safe" so our freedoms need to be removed in order to do that. I KNOW what is required for air safety after 34 years with the FAA. Bullying, groping thugs are NOT a requirement. BTW, did you ladies know that there are some of the Xray machines that can literally see through your clothes? They want to be "sure" you have nothing "strapped" to your body. My wife tells me of having to be strip searched in Russia under communist rule. It is no big deal for her. What would you have thought of this 20 years ago? Your attitudes have been successively approximated to tolerate fascism. We are THERE! For all you who want to chastise me for my disrespect, forget it. I have already heard it all! Just wave your flags and buy more metallic ribbons for your car. The ideology behind the symbol of the flag has been morphed beyond recognition
Posted: Nov 23, 07 8:21am
GWBush will go down as the most disastrous President of this country in its history.
Are we unaware of Abe Lincoln's violations of the Constitution. Suspensioin of habeas corpus. The largest mass hanging in US history - 38 Sanatee indians hung by Abes personal and specific instructions despite his explicit knowledge their trials violated almost every precept of American law. His list is long and disgusting. And I say this about him as a distant relative.
How about felony perjury by a sitting president, forget that too?
Since you are a conspiracy wacko, don't forget FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen.
I hope you retain your full mental faculties for another 25 years when objective looks at history will show him to be one of our best.
Posted: Nov 23, 07 10:05am
Exactly, Happydays. Illegal does indeed mean AGAINST THE LAW.
Posted: Feb 22, 08 12:29pm
You mentioned the current administration, but I believe it will be the next administration (& more than likely Democrat) that will probably be giving the monetary assistance to the illegals, and blanket amnesty to those that are currently here. I noticed that at least a few people making statements FOR illegal immigration live in the non-border states.
For us in Texas, we do have hospitals closing down because the illegals are using our ERs as an 'office visit', since the law says we cannot ask for payment up front in the ER. They get free treatment, THEN they tell us 'no can pay".
Then there's the ER overcrowding as a result of above. So the extremely sick & hurt people have to wait lengthy time periods in order to be seen (unless they come in via ambulance).
Then the school systems in the area are in heated discussions as to whether Spanish classes should be mandated so we can communicate better with the Hispanic population, and we the people pay for those classes.
Then there are the new immigrants & illegals that somehow pass a drivers test or are driving illegally and without insurance. Again, we pick up the tab for those accidents, the free-use of our freeways, etc.
Then, . . . never mind, the list is mindboggling.
Anyway, I don't mind the 'idea' of immigration, 'cause most of our ancestors got here from another country, and I don't begrudge someone wanting a 'better life', but they need to pay taxes, learn how to drive better, not use our ERs for minor cuts & flus, and learn the language of the country they are invading. Am I wrong? Those of you that are not in border states . . . do you understand? I'm not so sure.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 1:44am
it'd be great if that were true. heh, no greater problem than people coming here to work their butts off while maintaining momentum of the national economy. we can only dream.
no, the nation's biggest problem is corporate accelerated willful ignorance. that whole mess of , um, willfully juvenile entertainment labeled as "news". and "information". not disguised as. merely labeled. 'cos all that extra effort to make things sound rational, sensible, thoughtful, real, aren't necessary when the audience is, ah, willfully engaged in the mass disinformation movement.
hah. much later. i wrote a buncha words, then deleted them because, though i believe them to be relevant and accurate. i couldn't see them adding anything good to the dialogue. but i chose to include the willful ignorance paragraph because ... ..well, because it's a way important concern. and if you read it and think i was talking about you, think again. i was tryin' to talk *to* you. this dialogue thing ain't all that simple. takes practice sometimes, and trial and error stuff.
sort of back to the point. short question, short answer. america's biggest problem is fear. somebody gave a warning about that, few years back now.
Posted: Nov 21, 07 11:32am
"maintainig the momentum" of the BIGGEST BIFURCATION BETWEEN THE HAVES AND HAVE NOTS SINCE RIGHT BEFORE THE GREAT DEPRESSION is not something I would call a Great Economy.
It is neither sustainable, nor in anyone's best interest (including those elitest who current profit fro the practice).
Posted: Oct 27, 07 3:58am
I looked around me to discover what might be missing if all the illegals were to be rounded up and sent somewhere else. I guess I could do without the canned mushrooms and the cranberry juice. Eggs? I could always replace them with Egg Beaters - better for my health anyway. Lettuce is a different matter. What would I put between the American cheese and the mayo on my sandwich? And the mayo has eggs in it .... Hmmmmm.
My condo development has lots of green space. I guess the weeds would gain a great foothold if all the illegals were kicked out of the country.
Now for the real horror ... I would be living in the woods because the illegal Brazilan carpenters, wall builders and painters who made my house happen eleven years ago would not have been here.
Stranger even, a couple of years ago, the small minded people in the town where they live a mile or so from my home created draconian laws limiting landlords from renting to them and they all left. What happened afterward was justice served. The town remained empty, stores went out of business, houses that were available for rent and lay unrented got repo-ed by the bank. That set of laws was ruled unconstitutional this year but too late. Elvis left the building.
There is a problem but it is not that of the many people who came here because jobs were MADE available to them. Almost all of them sent money home to make life better for their families. The percentage of these illegals who became involved with the police, with welfare and with the other systems of our great nation were less than those of our own citizens who supposedly benefit from being a citizen here.
By the way, there are enough "illegals" here to populate the fourth largest state in the country. Perhaps that is the answer ... give them their own state. I would vote for Montana since the population there is less than the illegal population of New Jersey, all the Montanans who didn't want to live in the new state of Bramexvenchilarabia could come live with us in NJ. I know you might have a bit of catching up to do in our schools and complex industries, but what the heck, if the illegals could learn how to speak enough English to buy groceries to feed their kids, the Montanans could learn how to saddle a computer or rope a new pharmaceutical.
Think about it.
Posted: Nov 24, 07 1:51am
right or wrong aside..... I keep reading where this country would fall apart without them because the work they do. In a "Free Enterprise " system.... The labor pool would adjust to the resources available. The big business would not go out of business because the cheap labor left, they would have to adjust their payroll, maybe actually pay a decent wage. The wage difference between the top and bottom would have to narrow from it's 1000%. the prices would not sky rocket because that would mean no one could buy which would defeat the purpose of selling a product or service. it would be hell for a bit but the numbers would adjust so big business could stay in business. Example here in vegas the small business can't find enough help because the growth in casino's looking to hire in the next 2 years has drained the labor force...so they had to increase their wages. They get 10.00 an hour at 7/11........someone would always come up with a way to make a profit. when slavery ended in the US, the cotton did not rot in the fields long..... someone made a replacement out of wood and iron..... the beauty of greed is someone is always there to fill the void at a profit..... as long as You have cheap labor it does not pay to improve...... the work habits of Americans, well that's another story. But than a 40 year old guy working the graveyard shift at 7/11 somewhere making 7.50 an hour is probably not the happiest guy......
Posted: May 3, 08 11:36pm
MilT, re yours of 27 Oct.
Have that post inscribed on a brass plate and shove it up your pontificating ass.
If that is not clear enough I will draw you a picture.
If YOU knowingly hired illegal Brazilian workers to build your castle--you should be fined and deported.
A Montana citizen who would not trade an acre of this land for the whole goddamned state of N. J.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 6:38am
I'm always amazed to read about these towns all across America that are busy passing ordinances barring illegals from using town libraries and thier children from using swimming pools. Who are these mean-spirited people?
Posted: Oct 27, 07 8:16am
ann, and the rest of you, do you think that the money they take out of our checks each pay period should be used for their benefit? although i suspect that most are payed under the table, they provide a necessary service and as has been said, generally speaking, they have a greater work ethic than alot of legal citizens. but illegal is illegal. maybe the solution is to make it easier for immigrants to come, work, get in the system, pay taxes, but that still means higher costs for all of us.
when you think of it, the intellecual and emotional child supposedly running this country needs more money for his wars and buddies. by the way, we live in a corporate oligarchy cleverly disguised as a democracy; that's our biggest problem.
Posted: Nov 23, 07 8:46am
Ha Ha Ha ..they are not mean spirited ..they are smart..Didn't you know that ..
- illegals in libraries take up seats in the reading section that "english speaking/reading" people need
- illegals always "pee and poop" in the cumminity pools
Posted: Nov 24, 07 2:07am
they are not always "mean spirited" often they are mis-informed, mis-led to blame something so the true culprit can hide..... Often they are hard working Americans who find it harder and harder everyday to make ends meet with rising prices and deadend jobs. Often they get tired of hearing the whining and complaining of those who haven't earned the right. You have to remember most get their information from TV, news everywhere but the source. Those sources never show you the average hard working person, they dwell on the whiners and complainers, those who are forever wanting something for nothing and they get the impression they are given it at the expense of them. They get tired of hearing how someone who may not contribute to the american dream has so many concerned about their rights yet never once do they see anyone standing in front of the mall asking for donations for the working poor, never are they brought turkey's at thanksgiving, ask if all is ok...... all they get is what they see as the short end of the stick... ask to take more of the burden...... that is what they see, so they try to find blame.... But You can't blame people who the majority of want what anybody wants, to feed their family and have a decent standard of life.....but than what do I know......... I came here 40 years ago not able to speak a word of English and I survived without being given paperwork in German .......
Posted: Oct 27, 07 7:42am
Bruce Springsteen concluded his concert last night with "American Land" - and the words were on the the screen superimposed over the images. Immigration is how my family came here, and his words resonate with me:
I docked at Ellis Island in a city of light and spire
I wandered to the valley of red-hot steel and fire****
We made the steel that built the cities with the sweat of our two hands
And I made my home in the American land
There's diamonds in the sidewalk, there's gutters lined in song
Dear I hear that beer flows through the faucets all night long
There's treasure for the taking, for any hard working man
Who will make his home in the American land
The McNicholas, the Posalski's, the Smiths, Zerillis too**
The Blacks, the Irish, the Italians, the Germans and the Jews
The Puerto Ricans, illegals, the Asians, Arabs miles from home***-*****
Come across the water with a fire down below******
They died building the railroads, worked to bones and skin
They died in the fields and factories, names scattered in the wind
They died to get here a hundred years ago, they're dyin' now
The hands that built the country we're all trying to keep down
Posted: Oct 27, 07 9:15am
I got carried away on an earlier post to this topic and got off track. To answer Leu's question, most are not paid under the table. They have to buy a bogus social security card or have proof that they are trying to get one (I believe it is an ITN number).
If they have to pay SSI, they have to pay medicare.
I dont want to speculate. But, do you have any idea where the funds in the bogus accounts go? They DO go to the government.
My complaint is that the problem is being ignored..
A previous writer was correct. Most send money home to their families and live quite badly. I know this because the place I talk to them is at the Western Union sites. My LEGAL immigrant wife sends most of HER money home to her family. I am her support. The politicians dont want to touch it because it is such a hot potato.
WHY HAS nobody mentioned the fact that the fundamentalist churches bring them over by the thousands from the FSU and get them situated with welfare and stipends? You dont see them in the poorer states. But, I guarantee you will see them in Calif. I know, again, because I spoke to them (in their language) and shopped in their stores.
You should have seen my wife when they were using food stamps to buy Ukrainian delicacy's in the stores in Sacramento. Apparently there is deep seated hatred between the Ukrainians and the Russians, On the Ukrainian side because of Stalin's treatment of them. On the Russian side because I am told they are considered very clever at figuring out the social welfare systems. But, I take my wife's words with a grain of salt.
They all speak Russian and whatever language that was native to their former Soviet state. They would all start to speak Ukrainian when my wife spoke. Apparently they can recognize each other.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 10:44am
But didn't Springsteen's family that worked in the steel mills and on the railroads immigrate legally? That is a huge distinction.
Posted: Feb 22, 08 12:42pm
The ethics and integrity of people, on the whole,were quite a bit different during that time period.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 9:21am
Do you really believe that? Is it the illegal part; or the immigration part; or the fact that we don't make immigrants learn our language; or that they're just 'bad' people; or that it's very hard to immigrate legally?
It is SO not our biggest problem. I think most people would agree that the imbecile in charge and his cronies are our biggest problem.
The biggest problem is that the very thing the flag of the United States of America stands for, at least the 'Liberty and Justice for all' part, is being eroded to the point that our freedoms are only superficial.
Our biggest problem is the fact that the top 1% have 21% of the wealth and GWB keeps making policy that is going to make sure that that gets larger, as well as the gap in classes while eliminating the middle one.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 9:23am
AMEN!
Read my former post and reply to "happydays"?
Posted: Oct 27, 07 4:40pm
Jeff, what makes it more of a horror is that the top one percent cons the next 99 percent into believing anyone can reach the top one percent! Those that have it have many tricks to see to it that almost no one else can get there.
Frankly, they don't have anything I envy. What the hell would I do with a mansion? I am rattling around in my condo. Money? I can eat only three meals a day and i prefer to cook them myself. Vacations are not for me - I'm retired. Life is a vacation. I've been to all the places I wanted to see and a few I didn't.
The top one percent can have it ... just don't conspire to take away what I spent a lifetime earning.
Posted: Oct 29, 07 5:52am
These Mexicans are Mestizos, not liked in their own country let alone ours. They are the Apppache and Comanche we fought 150 years ago.
Posted: Nov 23, 07 11:06am
Sorry Milt T,
The vast majority of American millionaires are self-made in a single generation, their own.
Here are some facts about them:
Only 19 percent receive any income or wealth of any kind from a trust fund or an estate.
* Fewer than 20 percent inherited 10 percent or more of their wealth.
* More than half never received as much as $1 in inheritance.
* Fewer than 25 percent ever received "an act of kindness" of $10,000 or more from their parents, grandparents, or other relatives.
* Ninety-one percent never received, as a gift, as much as $1 of the ownership of a family business.
* Nearly half never received any college tuition from their parents or other relatives.
* Fewer than 10 percent believe they will ever receive an inheritance in the future.
By one estimate there will be 10 million new millionaires between 2006 and 2016. That's a million new millionaires a year for the mathematically challenged.
It might not be the top 1% but but it makes it clear the game is not rigged as you seem to be claiming.
Speaking of rigged, the top 1% paid over 39% of all income taxes paid in 2005. The top 5% paid a total of 59.67%.
Guess I was wrong. The game is rigged - against the very rich.
Posted: Dec 4, 07 7:03pm
jeffbrooke:
Standing ovation! Wish i could give you 10 kudos for that one!
Posted: Feb 22, 08 12:47pm
Our erosion as as a great nation is not due to the current Administration. It's due to "we the people." Don't put the blame on anyone but the people of this great country.
I'm 'anxious' to experience the "equalization" of all of our citizens as we become more and more socialistic. We used to be a republic, then we went to democracy, now we're heading toward socialism. We did it, and are doing it, to ourselves.
No, immigration is NOT our biggest problem.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 10:40am
One does not need to give respect to anything that follows the word illegal. Some forward thinking states like Oklahoma have sought to discourage illegal immigration to that state because of the burden of illegals borne by the legal taxpayers of the state. Businesses that hire such illegals face big fines for employing illegals.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 10:43am
Where to start? My great grandfather was sent down to southern Mexico in 1904 by the company he worked for. He was told to establish a rubber plantation, which he did. My blue eyed, blond grandmother remembers riding on the back of a Maya Indian as she traveled up to the finished finca (it still takes 7 hours by horseback to get there). She lived there for 10 years until the revolution. The family fled to Northern California and in the 40's my grandmother (a pilot by then) flew down to reclaim the land and built it anew. Years later, at 14, I traveled down with her and begged to stay in the beautiful area.
That was the beginning of my life in Mexico, where I married and had two children. In the late 80's I returned to the States. I brought my two sons with me and my husband at the time remained working and saving so we could eventually immigrate them all. My children were with me on tourist visas and they were due to expire in just a few weeks. (No, Folks. Children of Americans DO NOT automatically received American citizenship!) I finally found the appropriate phone numbers to call and was told that to immigrate my family, they would have to live in Mexico during the entire process (over a year) and they couldn't cross into the States. I would have to live in the United States, separated from them. My children were young at the time. I am just one of hundreds of thousands of people who were forced into doing things the illegal way. It is appalling, but true. The entire process is so incredibly complex, difficult, and inexplicable to the common lay person, that most must follow the illegal way first.
I'm not a "bleeding" liberal, for those of you who are wondering about the politics in this thread. I'm a moderate and vote on issues after weighing everything from both sides. On this issue, I have seen both sides. The women in my family are DAR's. There was a General in our family during the Civil War. I have also been the only American in a car of 4 family members and treated as though we were the scum of the earth while crossing the border into the US.
I've been to Ellis Island. I've seen what it took to enter this country at the time most of our great grandparents did. My second husband is the grandson of Italian immigrants. The door to their slave labor was wide open and they became successful because all they were required to do was look health, seem mentally alert, know someone in the States whose name they could use as reference, and a few dollars in their pockets for transportation. Do not think for one minute that this current situation can be compared with the one new immigrants now face. When the American government makes a process so cumbersome and so expensive ($4,000 per immigrant plus your lawyer's fees) how do we expect these people to follow the rules?
I respect everyone's views on this matter. My children became American citizens. Both are grown men who are making difference in peoples lives. One son is so important in his endeavor, he's constantly being praised in a local newspaper. I cannot tell you of the expense, the paperwork, the hours upon hours waiting at the various facilities to be interviewed, screened, and the constant fear of being rejected by the country that gave me birth.
Yes, there are huge problems on both sides of this issue. They all must be addressed. Let us be cautious though. When we divide a nation into "US" and "them", we open the door to hatred that is at the root of every genocide in human history. It sounds unreasonable, unthinkable. Do not believe that it cannot happen in this wonderful country though. Ask any survivor from the genocides in Turkey occupied Greece, Turkey itself, Europe during WWII, Croatia, Bosnia, Rwanda, the Sudan, and even in our early history. Let us listen less to the Lou Dobb's and more to the Mother Teresa's of the world and demand that this issue be observed from all sides and then resolved.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 11:38am
Kennette, thank you so much for sharing this with us. So moving and thoughtful. Kudo-ing your contribution didn't go far enough in saying thanks.
One thing about the hardships of previous immigrants, or would-be immigrants, however. Many Jewish refugees of the Nazis were turned away by this country. So harsh treatment, sending people seeking asylum back to their torturers and killers, is not new.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 12:17pm
Thank you for that. I figured that it was difficult beyond our imagination to gain citizenship.
I'm neither left, right nor in the middle, I stagger all over the aisle but this is the 'melting pot'. An immigrants criminal record and their wilingness to learn to speak English are the only things that I feel should keep one from gaining citizenship.
Language can be such a prejudicial barrier with man's innate xenophobic nature. I think this is, more than anything, what creates the 'us' and 'them' mentality. The compassion needed or deserved immigrants is 'lost in translation' so to speak.
Posted: Oct 27, 07 11:41pm
When I brought my wife over on a fiance visa, I had to mail a folder that weighed 5 lbs by itself. Everything was meticulously labeled certified, translated and separated into sub folders. The estimated cost of $4000 is conservative. I did everything myself and paid for my wife doing the required translation and certification on her end.
The INS (now Homeland Security courtesy of GWB)
had no phone number to contact them. And if there was even one flaw, you had to start the process all over again. After she got here the interviewers were rude and picked everything apart. After that, I had to write my congressman to get them to tell me what was wrong so she could get her first "Green Card". My letters were ignored. And, of course, there was no way to contact the local office by phone. When we went to the local office in Sacramento, we had to be there by 6:00 AM in order to get a number that would enable us to have an audience that day. That was AFTER the congresspersons office wrote them a letter and they "Found" my wife's file.