Words are powerful. They are a primary mode of communication. They are the median by which we exchange thoughts, ideas, and feelings. So "what's in a word" is important to our socialization. They can mean different things to different people. Understanding this, and sorting it out is therefore valuable to effective communication.
To this end, a word i wonder about is "Atheist". What meaning to people assign to it? Here's what Merriam-Webster assigns to it:
~~~
atheism (n)
1 archaic : ungodliness wickedness
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity
b: the doctrine that there is no deity
~~~
What are your thoughts? What does this work mean to you? What do you think it means to others? I'm curious to know, and wish to learn.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 8:01am
I'm thinking that, whatever the answer, it is ungodly.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 8:25am
Thinking this is a bait and switch discussion I will bite anyway after having good and sincere discussions with atheists personally.
They respond that atheism is defined as, "I am bright." Look it up if you think I jest.
They are intellectual people and that I am assured of. Five to thirty six million Americans (depending on what polls you read) claim to be atheists.
I would like to see where this thread goes. Anyone want to talk about Madalyn Murray O'Hair?
And yes, TBD has a group for atheists and agnostics which I am plugging.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 5:44am
"Bait and Switch"? Seams like a cynical presupossition to me. There are genuine people in the world. I tend to believe most people are.
"I am bright". That is an interesting definition. I don't think you jest. I'm sure some people hold this definition.
"They are intellectual people". I guess this could be interpreted as a defnition. To me, it seams like an assessment; a generalized judgement of a group.
I'm hoping the thread goes where i wanted it to go: To talk about the word "atheist" and what it means to various people.
That would be very nice.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 5:53am
Mr. Hogback -
Thanks for responding. Simple enough. :)
Sometimes when we use more words, we actually lose meaning.
Posted: Apr 18, 08 10:55am
hogback . . . you always make me laugh! Thank you!
Atheist - a non believer in the Bible, Jesus Christ or God.
Satanist - Marilyn Manson ! Scary!!
I am a Christian.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 9:00am
I'll go with "disbelief in the existance of deity" if I can use a caveat.
The caveat, many who claim disbelief in a deity in the usual religious sense, call it the ineffable bearded all-knowing, have substituted something else for deity.
Since PA is in the conversation, I'll use astrology as an example. Believers in astrology who disbelieve deity in the usual sense often seem to substitute the power of the stars as a ruler much in the same way those who believe in deity use their god.
Before anyone asks, I'm a Pastafarian, may His noodly appendage please.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 9:52am
Fromz, thats a good point......makes sense
**********************************************************
May I assume that you are a High Priest of the Simmering Sauce?
Posted: Jan 26, 08 10:13am
LoL,
Wish that I were but. like many believers in any religion, I simply find this religion fulfills my current needs :)
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:09am
Appreciate your comments, 'Fromz'.
You're "caveat" touched on what intrigues me about the definition: It seems to me there is a slight gap in the words we have and what we are trying to communicate. And thus, this word is used in different ways by different people.
Atheism may mean "no god"
Atheism may mean "no doctrine"
Britanica defines theism as:
"the view that all limited or finite things are dependent in some way on one supreme or ultimate reality of which one may also speak in personal terms."
Most people are "no doctrine" people.
Many people are "no god" people.
But very few are "no ultimate reality".
And this is why i inquired as to what the word means to different people.
My next thread will be "what is a pastafarian", but please - lets stick to the topic here friends. I'd like to see how this noodle sticks first. *smiles*
Posted: Jan 26, 08 9:31am
Dj, Religions like Christiany have split into many sects and denominations since its inception.
From what I understand atheism also has and is broken up into different camps. There are Brights like editor said, although I don't think that name is catching on among most Atheists. Other descriptions such as weak or strong Aitheist are also being used. I have even met Atheists who merge their non faith with what they call their choice of mythology like paganism. That doesn't make sense to most. But I suppose It is no different than some Christian demonations accepting others as not legitimate.
This is not to say that most athiest meet in groups, but that they identify with different aspects of their world view.
It wil be interesting to hear how Atheists themselves define the word. Like editor, my experience with Atheists shows them to be very inteligent.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 10:33am
Intelligence of this world doesnt compare with the intelligence of the holy spirit.
But,my motto,live and let live.As long as they dont come at me with thier "disbeliefs"I wont come at them with my beliefs.I think atheists are just future christians,at least thats a good thought to a christian.
God bless them and us all!
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:19am
hey Jack - appreciate your comments.
You, too, have hit on the observations i have made which have had me curious into what the word means to different people.
I have not heard of "Brights" until today, but i would estimate that it represents people who are are mostly aligned under a common set of beliefs.
Interesting enough - when aligned to a common set of beliefs, and finding fellowship in that light - the form of a religion begins to appear.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 10:44am
Hickchick: I think you nailed it: live and let live.
Historically, where mankind has gotten into trouble with religion has been where one group isn't satisfied until all believe (or disbelieve) as they do. It would be interesting (and shocking) to know how many have died as a result.
I wonder what God would have to say about that?
As that other famous King (Rodney) said: Why can't everybody just get along?
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:22am
Hi Hogback -
Everyone can get along. It is an individual choice. We need to be the change we wish to see in the world.
Putting these words to action - i am trying to better understand what "atheist" means to different people so that i can increase and understanding and my ability to sow love and peace among people.
Posted: Feb 1, 08 12:17pm
As far as God is concerned, "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' (Psalm 14:1). An atheist is a person who says he does not believe in God; therefore, God, not mankind, says he is a fool. Dictionary states that 'fool' means 'those who misuse true wisdom'. The truly wise person, then, is not an atheist.
To 'live & let live' is fine if we're talking about mundane topics, but if you see someone drowning, it would go against most people's conscious to not throw out a lifeline. It's how that lifeline is thrown out, I believe, that raises the ire of many. Hitting someone with a lifeline just hurts them or renders them unconscious, but letting them know you have a lifeline available, right beside them, allows them to make their own choice. God never wants his creatures to be coerced into believing in Him or loving Him.
"Religion" is man's way of trying to appease or reach God; however, "Christianity" is God's way of reaching out to man. Unlike religions, Christianity is a personal relationship with God. Unlike religion, being united with God is nonmeritorius . . . God does all the work, man reaps the benefits.
It is a widely accepted practice that one shouldn't talk about religion or politics because people get hurt and wars get started, etc. There's a way to relate one's beliefs without these things happening, but humans do tend to either relate their views in a self-righteous manner or the listener tends to be hyper-reactive and not open to hearing what may actually be the truth. I hope these thoughts contribute positively to the discussion at hand.
Posted: Apr 21, 08 9:03pm
I agree with that hogback, hickchick and wonder if the post here was really about communication and not the topic so mentioned...hmmmmm?
This is often the case with much interpreted today in religion and language. Word given rewritten, translated, defined in ways that may or may not represent the actual word as it was given and meant. Meanwhile, we are all here trying to figure out what the ...... we're all talking about. That's why I chose to listen with my heart, and it has benefited me and those I have been able to offer assistance too when needed. I do believe in the /an inner wisdom. I do believe in a Divine and Holy being whether of spirit or love. I cannot imagine being without that knowing. It is not something that is explainable, but is. Just my thoughts.Peace.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 12:13pm
I have a friend, a Professor, who is a self-proclaimed atheist. He is incredibly intelligent, sensitive, loving, caring and creative.
But yet his life is miserable, profoundly unhappy, and his physical decline mirrows his emotional state.
He has been to doctor after doctor, and yes,psychiatrist also, many of them, but he continues on his down-hill spiral.
I've wanted to reach out to him, as I dislike seeing anyone in pain, either emotional, or physical, yet it is hard, with respect to his own beliefs.
I guess what i'm trying to say is: I can't imagine even trying to survive this life, without belief in a higher power, I wonder if all atheist feel this hopelessness in their dark moments and as the end of this chapter, comes to a close?
Posted: Jan 26, 08 12:20pm
I know many believers in the same or similar situations.
I seriously doubt your professor's condition has a dmaned thing to do with his belief system
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:01am
Oh? Sort of like "No god, no Peace"?
And if he were extremely devout, yet still in in such a miserable state of emotions and body, what would you say then, that "god never gives us more than we can stand"?
I feel no "hopelessness" because I don't have the invisible sky-daddy threatening to torture me for ever because I refused to "hate Fags" or whatever his press agents tell me I need to do when I send in the $100 "love gift".
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:25am
This thread is a simple discussion on what "atheism" means to people.
It is NOT a discussion on the effectiveness of any set of beliefs. Those who wish to discuss that might want to create or join into another thread.
Thank you.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 3:49pm
I think I can answer the question "I wonder if all atheists........." No. As many have eloquently or a little angrily stated here, this is all so individual that whether one is a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Hindu, an atheist, an agnostic, or just a human being who absorbs some from everyone and finds their own way, personal happiness is about the person. It would be such a breath of fresh air for me if all those of "faith" or whatever could accept others as equals, regardless of their faith orientation or lack thereof. World peace, prosperity, and advancement will only truly occur when we as human beings can do that.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 4:28pm
to answer your question: no.
to comment on what you say you are "trying to say": an inability to imagine a certain state demonstrates only a lack of imagination.
-s
Posted: Feb 5, 08 3:44pm
It sounds like your professor's "condition" has everything to do with his belief system. God does not want anyone to die and enter an eternal judgment that separates man from God. He will allow suffering if that suffering will result in his decision to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation, or He will allow a terrible and painful death for the one that turns his/her back on Him. God's perfect justice must prevail. His love and His judgment depend on it.
The suffering that Jesus Christ went through on the cross was both physical and spiritual. The greatest pain He endured was His 3-hour spiritual separation from God, the time where God could not look upon His Son because He was carrying the weight of all sins from all humans, past, present and future. Separation from God for all eternity is a fate that is unfathomable.
Posted: Apr 5, 08 6:48pm
Mystery,
I'm also a self-proclaimed atheist. I'm considered very intelligent by many (well, by my wife and by my boss...that's good enough for most work). I hope that people think of me kindly in those other areas.
I've had two back surgeries, leg surgery, jaw surgery, and recently had prostate surgery for cancer. Yet, I am, overall, pretty happy. I'm in the best shape I've been in for about 20 years; I walk up to 10 miles a day, and I'm getting ready for a 40+ mile bike tour in a month.
So am I supopsed to feel this "hopelessness," too? I have devoutly Chriatian friends who are going through all manner of hell on earth, and feel the same sort of "hopelessness" that you assign to your professor. They keep wondering why their God, who they love with all their heart, can treat them like such shit. They wonder if it's something they've done that they're being punished for, or that their children are being punished for.
I personally can't imagine placing belief and hope in a non-existent "higher power" that makes you feel like you've been a bad boy or girl all your life. It's a matter of self-esteem. It's a matter of self-respect.
Over all, I see no great difference in the lives of religious people than I do in the lives of non-religious people. It's just that religious people believe that someone loves them (even as they're getting the spiritual shit beat out of them) and that they have some ill-defined "ultimate happy place" to go to once they die.
Posted: Jan 26, 08 12:44pm
Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that there is no God. Since none of us can know with certainty whether or not there is a God, atheism requires faith just as any religious belief does.
As to intelligence, there is not necessarily a correlation between belief/non-belief and level of intelligence -- there are smart and dumb Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc. To me, the correlation between belief and intelligence is with regard to whether one's beliefs are well thought out rather than just reflecting blind faith.
As for me, I was raised Catholic, spent most of my adult life as a fundamentalist Christian, and then a couple years ago started thinking of myself as agnostic. Most recently I started reading about deism, and am thinking that fits most with what I believe right now. I believe in God, but have a hard time accepting that one book, or one group has all the answers. Also, based on my life experience, it's hard to accept that God is personally involved in our lives -- rather, I see him more like the CEO of the universe; running the big stuff, and letting everything else happen as it will.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:11am
No it's not.
It is a LACK of belief. It requires no faith.
I don't believe there are pink unicorns in this world, either. Is that also a matter of faith?
I have seen no evidence of Unicorns of any colour, no fossil record, no remains, no sightings, etc.
Nor Krakens, Sasquatch, Yetis, Space Aliens, or Compassionate Conservatives....
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:32am
Hi "ewb1" ~
"Atheism is a belief that there is no god". I appreciate the way you answered my question. Paraphrasing, one might say "Atheism is a faith, and atheists are believers in this faith".
I do appreciate you placing this in the personal context, and bringing the word "agnostic" to the discussion. Agnostic seams to be more universally defined. I like the definition "hey - i can't tell you for sure, all i can tell you is what i believe".
:o)
Posted: Feb 1, 08 1:07pm
How sad that one should believe that God is not personally involved in our lives. Imagine a human body as marvelously formed as ours, then imagine its Maker shrugging his shoulders and walking away, saying, "Good luck." Just because we are finite and "dumb" and often can't find our way out of a paper sack does not mean the God and Creator of the universe is not involved. God is a gentleman, however, and has allowed us a free will. We CHOOSE to be ignorant. We CHOOSE to be alone and lost. We also CHOOSE as to whether we want to be personally connected to our Creator. We can't legitimately blame God for poor choices. Most of our misery is self-induced, but I think a wise man learns much more from his adversities than from the prosperous times. (am I rambling?)
God is ever present in our lives whether we want to accept it or not. An atheist may also believe that the sun is actually the moon, but that does not change the actual fact that it is not, does it?
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:20am
2a and 2b work for me.
Definition 1 is patently offensive because of the assumption that without god, one is wicked and evil. It's the root of the "You have no god in your life, so you can do anything you want without fear of punishment" argument. That's crap, because I have a "fear" of man's Law, plus my own personal accountability. I'm more worried about somebody who says they walk the straight and narrow because god will squash them if they don't.
The idea that Atheism is some kind of "religion" because it requires faith to not believe is just bunk pushed by the religious right as a childish argument to turn our secular government into a theocracy.
And this term "Bright". I don't like it. It sounds childish to me, like you're saying "Oh, dig me, I don't believe in the Great Gas in The Sky, so that makes me smarter and brighter than YOU..."
Atheist works just fine for me.
And I believe the way things work is that the burden of proof lays with the person making the claim that something exists, not the other way around.
The matter of incandescent electric lighting was not decided by people failing to prove that it was impossible, it was decided by Edison inventing a workable one.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:33am
okie dokie.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:29am
What's the big deal? I don't care what your tag is; only how you interact with the world. If going to a religious service on a regular basis makes you happy/ better/ more connected -- then do so. If you go to whatever you think of as church, and then treat your fellow human with disregard, then you are small and a hypocrite. If you judge others because they believe something different, then you are a hypocrite.
I'm an atheist. "Man(kind) is the measure of all things." I have no god, no afterlife, no set of commands to obey, no need to pray. I lead a good life of regard for my fellow man because it makes me happy to do so, and because it is in my best interest to have others do so. I have no need to press my non-belief on others, and prefer that others not try to convert me.
Our current government seems to confuse Christianity and democracy and wants to impose both on the rest of the world, and look where that got us!
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:39am
okie dokie.
in there i interpreted a possible definition of atheism as being a "belief that mankind is the measure of all things".... but i do confess admit i was interpreting. I was searching for a direct answer to the original question.
I often use words to interact with the people in the world, and therefore i am very sensitive to what the words mean to different people. I do not assume that my definition is their definition, and in my journey i have found that emotions are often triggered in people when words are used in ways that do not align with them.
This is why i began this thread by asking what is the meaning of "atheism".
Peace.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 1:00pm
For all---------------to each his own.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 6:54am
If it helps, I can give you the prayer of the agnostic existentialist:
Dear God, if there is a God; help me, if there is a me.
Posted: Feb 1, 08 7:27pm
I'm not sure if it helps or not. It is humorous.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not; a sense of humor to console him for what he is." -Sir Francis Bacon
Posted: Jan 31, 08 7:02am
Milt T, if your prayer ever shows up in the thread, it deserves both inspirational and funny kudos.
(Shows in my alerts but hasn't appeared in the discussion.)
Posted: Feb 1, 08 7:31pm
it showed up! go get 'im :)
Posted: Jan 31, 08 7:47am
My father was an atheist. His version was 2a and 2b and I continue to hold those definitions.
My understanding of the word is colored by my experience with him and my personal exploration. During the time I was an atheist, I held it as a personal system of belief or thought, and felt part of a community of others who also did not accept the idea that a higher power existed and looked for other ways to find meaning from their existence.
Reading I have done from those who define themselves this way, however, does not lead me to agree with the definition of "godlessness". To me, this implies that they are without conscience, uncaring, sociopathic.
People I have met who are atheist have highly defined moral and ethical systems of thought and behavior not dependent on deity.
Posted: Feb 1, 08 7:47pm
Hi Otter ~
Thanks for sharing your observation of meaning assigned to the word. And the personal context that you put it into. :)
Your sharing on "godlessness" was also appreciated. Words say things... and the often 'imply' other things. Often times the sender and receiver are not aligned.
A-theism = no god.
no god = godless
but i would share your interpretation - anyone who related "atheist" with "godlessness" is probably connecting the noun with adjectives. In human terms, this means assessment/judgements are being made.
Perhaps that is why Meriam-Webster notes the first definition as "archaic"; it is outdated and does not fit modern day communications.
Posted: Jan 31, 08 12:52pm
* includes photos
Of course there is a Diety .. who do you think "pushed the button" to get this party going in the first place ??
Froggy
The "Life of the Party" pushed the button..!
Posted: Jan 31, 08 2:55pm
If you find out who first pushed that button, let me know. I want to have a serious talk with her about my big nose and gray hair. :-)