1. Where in the Bible does it even suggest this?

2. Mere logic makes the position indefensible. What would be the point of belief in God if it would make no difference? And without free will, we needn't feel guilty either! Pretty handy belief to self-justify behavior...gotta remember that one!

Thanks for posting Hippie In The Day. That is a doctrine usually associated with John Calvin.

Mention of the word predestinate is found in Romans and in Ephesians each twice.

(Rom 8:29 Rom 8:30 Eph 1:5 Eph 1:11)

The Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination which means God's foreknowledge of man's destination.

Unfortunately, the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, only one or the other.

Before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved in Christ.

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (Gen. 3:1-6) (Josh. 24:15) (Matt.11:28)

There are no innocent persons in the world, for we have all fallen short of the glory of God. God will give eternal life to anyone who responds to Him. That is free will and every man has the opportunity to be saved.

Here is the thing, if we are all born into sin, which the Bible states is due to the Fall. None of us would naturally chose God. We would run from Him. By saying that we chose God it puts us in control. Question, if He is not in control over who comes to Him then what else is He not in control over? Do we really want to worship a God who has limits (or that we put limits on)?

Thanks for posting with us, fancypants!

God is indeed in control as Ephesians clearly says.

I am grateful for my election. Yet, the "doctrine" of predestination causes misunderstanding and comments such as, Why bother, then?

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

People have the right to choose their own delusions, and so shall their doom be.

I disagree with your premise, fancypants. When I did something wrong, I did not run away from home or UNchoose my parents...I still wanted the security and love that I knew I could have once I had submitted myself to their rule. And if we would "naturally not choose God," our choices would be...what? And what if some of us see little benefit from those other choices in the long run?

I don't personally wrestle too hard with the 'born into sin' concept, primarily because I see that many of us are guilty of sinful things as it is--me included. Few live a life of perfection as we live it, so the 'born into sin' debate is more academic than practical for my spiritual life.

I don't see where choosing something 'puts us in control.' There are many things I've chosen--cars, homes, electronics, spouse--that I hardly felt put me in control! Ha!

re: Predestination

God is omniscient, meaning He knows everything past, present and future. He gave us free will, but because He is omniscient, He knew in eternity past what our decisions would be. He knows who will choose to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and who would not.

So, let's take me for instance. God knew billions and billions of years ago that "Judi" would, at the age of 17, make the decision to believe in Jesus Christ. Knowing that, God selected me to be born in America (a free country), and to the parents and family I have, because He knew what would make me the person I would become. He "elected" me into His royal family and predestined a perfect plan for my life.

He knows every decision I make before I make it. He didn't make those decisions for me, but He knows every scenario for every decision I will make, or could have made about anything in my life.

As long as I am positive toward Bible doctrine and stay in God's will or plan that He made just for me, then I will receive His blessings and will have an abundance of happiness (contentment) both in this life and in the hereafter, in Heaven.

God is a gentleman, and will not force us to choose Him, but our choices do have consequences. We are in control of our choices. Does this help any? : - )

Many things in spiritual matters or dealings with God are paradoxes. There is a beautiful tension between the sovereignty of God and the freewill of man. I see both election and predestination along with freewill in the scriptures. There are people who sincerely believe that unless a person comes under conviction of sin, repents and believes on Jesus Christ they are not saved. That includes everyone from the moment of conception. These people do not believe in the "age of accountability." They also believe that God in His sovereign grace has chosen those whom he chooses and everyone else is doomed. Here is the TULIP doctrine of Predestination and Election. I have trouble with the third petal - Limited Atonement. I see many, many scriptures that refute it. A Brief Definition of the Doctrines of Grace, or the Five Points of Calvinism (T.U.L.I.P.) by Mr. Christopher Blum visit his web blog here TOTAL DEPRAVITY (or Radical Corruption) asserts that because of the Fall, man’s nature was so drastically affected by sin that he in himself is utterly incapable of believing the gospel or lifting a finger to do God’s will. That is not due to God exerting some force to keep him hardened, but simply due to the desperately corrupt nature of his own heart and will, making him totally blind and deaf to the things of God. Because man’s will is not free—for it is in bondage to his evil nature—he will never, and in fact can never, choose the goodness of God over the sinful desires of the flesh. Thus, even if the Holy Spirit were to give man much assistance and help to overcome his sinful nature, see the light and choose the truth, if any part of that changing-process were left up to man with his natural will, he would be unable to repent. UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (or Sovereign Election) asserts that from eternity past, God the Father chose certain individuals from every tongue, tribe, nation and generation of humanity to redeem—the elect—and passed over the rest of mankind—the reprobate. His selection of specific people was not, in any way, based on or related to a foreknowledge of any future faith, repentance or actions of theirs. Being completely independent of any characteristics of the people, God’s choice was rooted entirely in His sovereign, transcendent, perfect will, the nature or specifics of which the Bible leaves as a complete mystery to us. However, all those whom God lovingly predestined to come to salvation will surely and absolutely be brought so through the death of Christ and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. LIMITED ATONEMENT (or Definite Atonement) asserts that Christ’s death on the Cross had only the elect in mind, and was intended to save them alone. While the Atonement was infinite in value—for, since even one sin is an infinite abomination against God, only an Atonement of infinite value could put away any sin at all—that value was reserved for the elect alone, and the blood Christ shed on the Cross was offered for their sins alone. Not even a potential application of it was, in any sense, ever made to the rest of mankind; in other words, when Christ was shedding His blood on the Cross, he never thought of his suffering with regard to anyone but those whom the Father had elected to be redeemed by it. It is thus incorrect to say that Christ died to save anyone who is now in hell, or that the Father ever intended for Christ’s blood to even try to cleanse those people. Furthermore, not only was Christ’s Atonement designed for, and given to, only the elect; it also actually secured salvation for them, and purchased all the means to such, including their faith and repentance, thereby guaranteeing their salvation. Thus, the Atonement did not merely offer its objects the opportunity to be redeemed, but it wholly and effectively redeemed them! IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (or Effectual Grace) asserts that when the external call to salvation is made, and the gospel is proclaimed either through the spoken word or the silent reading of Scripture, the Holy Spirit extends a special inward call to the elect people that God wishes to save at that particular time. This inward call is called regeneration or the new birth, and, far more than being mere assistance in helping its objects believe, it is an entire reconstruction of their very natures and intrinsic wills, transforming them into, as the Bible puts it, “slaves to righteousness” rather than “slaves to sin.” It is a divine opening of their eyes—God revealing their sin and His splendor to their hearts, splendor which they would otherwise never have sought, but which, once they see, they can never stop desiring and pursuing. Thus, the Holy Spirit’s work is in no way dependant upon man’s cooperation for success, for man in his corrupt nature cannot willingly cooperate, and that is the very thing the Holy Spirit is changing in him. In other words, while the outward call of the gospel can be resisted, this inward call of the Spirit cannot; it is always wholly effectual in accomplishing its purpose of instantaneously transforming the nature of its recipients from evil to good, so that it inevitably causes them to joyfully and willingly repent of their deep sin and choose Christ. Thus, it is God’s choice of the sinner, and not the sinner’s of God, that ultimately and fully causes salvation, since the sinner’s very willingness to put faith in Christ is solely a gift from God that was purchased at the Cross. PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS (or Preservation of the Saints) asserts that once the Holy Spirit regenerates people, and they place their trust in Christ, they are eternally kept in their state of salvation by God. For when they were unregenerate, their wills were held captive to sin, but are now held captive to righteousness by God. And He faithfully preserves all whom He set out to save and drew to Him. Likewise, whenever anyone apparently “receives Christ,” but later falls away and dies in that state, they were never truly saved at all—for anyone whom the Holy Spirit calls was predestined by the Father and atoned for by the Son, and thus is sealed with God’s promise of eternal life. Furthermore, in addition to eternally preserving the salvation of His elect, God confirms that salvation by the process of sanctification, wherein the Spirit continually conforms all believers to Christ more and more as their life progresses. Thus, the Father’s election, the Son’s atonement and the Spirit’s regeneration are all confirmed to believers by the witness of their own changed hearts and minds, and by the production of good works and fruit.

I personally do not see the absolutism of the above in my reading of the scriptures.

Lois