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End Time Church Leaders and Prophets

Posted: Jul 8, 08 1:06pm

Continuing on my theme of eschatology, I would like to solicit thoughts and ideas on those individuals already presenting themselves as end time leaders, evangelists, apostles, prophets, and / or God himself (those presenting themselves as Jesus Christ or God are pretty obviously 'off track' and false, but we can talk about them here, too).

Some of these leaders are obvious false prophets / leaders to anyone who has studied the bible and spent time in prayer. But there are some that are a bit more insidious . . . ESPECIALLY to new believers, or to those that struggle with their spirituality.

I'm not looking for insights on evangelists in general . . . I'm specifically interested in those that preach to the subject of end times and can quote, and quite convincingly argue the context and meaning of biblical text to support their claims. When they are SO convincing and seem to be biblically based . . . how can you tell who to listen to, and who to be afraid of . . .

I don't want to limit the conversation to the few that I know by name . . . I think of this as an opportunity for us to discuss these individuals, and where necessary, present our warning regarding their teachings. We may not all agree on what is said about these leaders, so feel free to state that you disagree, but I hope we can keep it civil.

To get things started, I'd like to reference a recent post by our dear friend, Editor, for whom I have great respect. On the thread regarding "Is This The End Of The World" you stated that you are aware of the late Herbert W. Armstrong, but 'refuse to read his writings'. Personally, I have a feeling we'll agree on this one, but your comment intrigued me. Help me understand your concerns about this particular man who is, by some, considered an 'apostle'.

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God, eschatology, end of the world, end times, prophet, apostle, leader, evangelist, evangelism, debate

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65 Comments // 10 Members

editor

Posted: Jul 8, 08 11:21pm

EOG, you come up with the best discussions. I was fortunate early in my life to be introduced to the book, The Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin. It is there that I read of the Worldwide Church of God and Herbert Armstrong's doctrines. Below you will find, in part, his beliefs and why mainstream Christianity rejects his teachings.

BELIEFS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Trinity

God is more than a single person. He is not limited to a Triune God, but is a family and consist of many. The belief is that the Godhead is not a closed system in which all others are prevented from taking part. The purpose of man is for God to reproduce Himself in human beings so that they can eventually become gods themselves.

God

"The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh - begotten by God, who through this later begettal became his Father. So here we find revealed originally two Personages. One is God. But these two Personages were spirit, which is invisible to human eyes unless supernaturally manifested. Yet at the time described in verse one Jesus was not the Son of God and God was not his Father."

Jesus Christ

"Jesus was born to rule and reign as king over all nations of the earth. Nearly 2000 years ago, Jesus qualified to become this world's ruler by conquering Satan the evil one." "His human birth was the arrival of the `second Adam.' He had come to qualify, where the first Adam failed. And he came to be resurrected from the dead by God, making possible ETERNAL GOD-LIFE for the people of God."

The Holy Spirit

"The truth is - and it would shock millions to know - that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Rather, it is the agency by which God the Father works. The Holy Spirit is an agency, a force, a power that is used by the Highest - God the Father - to achieve his purpose. The Holy Spirit, we repeat, is not a person."

Man

"God wants everyone of us to eventually become like Him."

"Why should it seem strange that you will someday be the spirit-composed child of your heavenly Father? You will be what He is - God."

"God's PURPOSE in having created humanity - in having caused YOU to be born - is to reproduce Himself."

Salvation

"God will ultimately save most of mankind after Christ's return - not now." "Every human who ever lived will have an opportunity to receive salvation For most people that time will come after they have lived their entire lives, died and are brought back to life in a future resurrection."

The Bible

"The revelation of these mysteries was lost, even to the Church of God, although the revelation of them has been preserved in the writings of the Bible. Why, then, has the world not clearly understood? Because the Bible was a coded book, not intended to be understood until our day in this later half of the twentieth century."

EOG, you come up with the best discussions. I was fortunate early in my life to be introduced to the book, The Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin. It is there that I read of the Worldwide Church of God and Herbert Armstrong's doctrines. Below you will find, in part, his beliefs and why mainstream Christianity rejects his teachings. BELIEFS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Trinity God is more than a single person. He is not limited to a Triune God, but is a family and consist of many. The belief is that the Godhead is not a closed system in which all others are prevented from taking part. The purpose of man is for God to reproduce Himself in human beings so that they can eventually become gods themselves. God "The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh - begotten by God, who through this later begettal became his Father. So here we find revealed originally two Personages. One is God. But these two Personages were spirit, which is invisible to human eyes unless supernaturally manifested. Yet at the time described in verse one Jesus was not the Son of God and God was not his Father." Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong Jesus Christ "Jesus was born to rule and reign as king over all nations of the earth. Nearly 2000 years ago, Jesus qualified to become this world's ruler by conquering Satan the evil one." "His human birth was the arrival of the `second Adam.' He had come to qualify, where the first Adam failed. And he came to be resurrected from the dead by God, making possible ETERNAL GOD-LIFE for the people of God." Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong The Holy Spirit "The truth is - and it would shock millions to know - that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Rather, it is the agency by which God the Father works. The Holy Spirit is an agency, a force, a power that is used by the Highest - God the Father - to achieve his purpose. The Holy Spirit, we repeat, is not a person." Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong Man "God wants everyone of us to eventually become like Him." "Why should it seem strange that you will someday be the spirit-composed child of your heavenly Father? You will be what He is - God." "God's PURPOSE in having created humanity - in having caused YOU to be born - is to reproduce Himself." Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong Salvation "God will ultimately save most of mankind after Christ's return - not now." "Every human who ever lived will have an opportunity to receive salvation For most people that time will come after they have lived their entire lives, died and are brought back to life in a future resurrection." Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong The Bible "The revelation of these mysteries was lost, even to the Church of God, although the revelation of them has been preserved in the writings of the Bible. Why, then, has the world not clearly understood? Because the Bible was a coded book, not intended to be understood until our day in this later half of the twentieth century."

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Posted: Jul 8, 08 11:21pm

Comment

spell check

EOG, you come up with the best discussions. I was fortunate early in my life to be introduced to the book, The Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin. It is there that I read of the Worldwide Church of God and Herbert Armstrong's doctrines. Below you will find, in part, his beliefs and why mainstream Christianity rejects his teachings.

BELIEFS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Trinity
God is more than a single person. He is not limited to a Triune God, but is a family and consist of many. The belief is that the Godhead is not a closed system in which all others are prevented from taking part. The purpose of man is for God to reproduce Himself in human beings so that they can eventually become gods themselves.

God
"The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh - begotten by God, who through this later begettal became his Father. So here we find revealed originally two Personages. One is God. But these two Personages were spirit, which is invisible to human eyes unless supernaturally manifested. Yet at the time described in verse one Jesus was not the Son of God and God was not his Father."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Jesus Christ
"Jesus was born to rule and reign as king over all nations of the earth. Nearly 2000 years ago, Jesus qualified to become this world's ruler by conquering Satan the evil one." "His human birth was the arrival of the `second Adam.' He had come to qualify, where the first Adam failed. And he came to be resurrected from the dead by God, making possible ETERNAL GOD-LIFE for the people of God."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

The Holy Spirit
"The truth is - and it would shock millions to know - that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Rather, it is the agency by which God the Father works. The Holy Spirit is an agency, a force, a power that is used by the Highest - God the Father - to achieve his purpose. The Holy Spirit, we repeat, is not a person."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Man
"God wants everyone of us to eventually become like Him."
"Why should it seem strange that you will someday be the spirit-composed child of your heavenly Father? You will be what He is - God."
"God's PURPOSE in having created humanity - in having caused YOU to be born - is to reproduce Himself."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Salvation
"God will ultimately save most of mankind after Christ's return - not now." "Every human who ever lived will have an opportunity to receive salvation For most people that time will come after they have lived their entire lives, died and are brought back to life in a future resurrection."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

The Bible
"The revelation of these mysteries was lost, even to the Church of God, although the revelation of them has been preserved in the writings of the Bible. Why, then, has the world not clearly understood? Because the Bible was a coded book, not intended to be understood until our day in this later half of the twentieth century."

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ordinarygirl

Posted: Jul 9, 08 6:36am

Interesting! In Ronald Weinland's books and on his websites (for his off-shoot of the WCG) it is strongly suggested that one read and agree with all HWA's writings, but in the books specifically, the information provided by RW seems to conflict with quotes above. Odd.

I was disturbed by Ronald Weinland's writings because he outright claims to be one of the two end time prophets that will be given power and protection at the end (until they are killed by the antichrist and their bodies are left in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days). Enoch . . . Elijah . . . Moses . . . and Ronald Weinland? I am skeptical to say the least. But he is one that, while poorly written, can provide compelling arguements for most of his claims. Having studied a bit, I can typcially point to conflicting information that makes me feel comfortable doubting his claim that he's an end time prophet . . . but he's a good example of someone that might be dangerous to a new Christian.

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editor

Posted: Jul 9, 08 7:24am

ordinarygirl wrote:

I was disturbed by Ronald Weinland's writings because he outright claims to be one of the two end time prophets that will be given power and protection at the end (until they are killed by the antichrist and their bodies are left in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days). Enoch . . . Elijah . . . Moses . . . and Ronald Weinland? I am skeptical to say the least. But he is one that, while poorly written, can provide compelling arguements for most of his claims. Having studied a bit, I can typically point to conflicting information that makes me feel comfortable doubting his claim that he's an end time prophet . . . but he's a good example of someone that might be dangerous to a new Christian.

I can barely keep up with the introduction of new "end times prophetic teachers and apostles." I thank you for posting this new oddity to me "authority's" voice from Weinland.

I am just so grateful that 40 years ago I began to store God's Word in my heart and had an orthodox upbringing in a mainstream circle, despite the deadness of spiritual progression in Christian growth living in that local church.

That was, in my experience, my choice to sit at the feet of Jesus and be responsible for loving, learning, and believing he was to Shepherd me without 24X7 aide of others. Who could possibly, other than Jesus, cater to this high maintenance person newly converted?

That sounds even queer to me that I say it, for I am not a lone wolf, but believe in the corporate gathering of the Lord's Body of believers, like it or not.

As frustrated as we may become about the presentation of the Gospel in society today, I find RW someone to spit out of my mouth immediately, yet I am all too aware of the danger of misrepresentation to a new Christian and honest people being deceived and mislead. As well, I am very aware as that new leadership takes over as head of a group and its founding father's that have passed on, new doctrines are now introduced and render us almost incapable of keeping up with "church policy" and "statement of belief".

*sighs* loudly, EOG. This is just a great thread to open eyes and I hope it can continue. I seem, at times, to be trapped in the 20th century, yet God has made me come to TBD to catch up with the here and now. Sending a blessing your way today and I am praying that the Lord, whose timing is perfect, finds my prayer to be timely for you and for your family.

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Posted: Jul 9, 08 7:24am

Quote

Comment

spell check

I can barely keep up with the introduction of new "end times prophetic teachers and apostles." I thank you for posting this new oddity to me "authority's" voice  from Weinland.

I am just so grateful that 40 years ago I began to store God's Word in my heart and had an orthodox upbringing in a mainstream circle, despite the deadness of spiritual progression in Christian growth living in that local church.

That was, in my experience, my choice to sit at the feet of Jesus and be responsible for loving, learning, and believing he was to Shepherd me without 24X7 aide of others. Who could possibly, other than Jesus, cater to this high maintenance person newly converted?
That sounds even queer to me that I say it, for I am not a lone wolf, but believe in the corporate gathering of the Lord's Body of believers, like it or not.

As frustrated as we may become about the presentation of the Gospel in society today, I find RW someone to spit out of my mouth immediately, yet I am all too aware of the danger of misrepresentation to a new Christian and honest people being deceived and mislead. As well, I am very aware as that new leadership takes over as head of a group and its founding father's that have passed on, new doctrines are now introduced and render us almost incapable of keeping up with "church policy" and "statement of belief".

*sighs* loudly, EOG. This is just a great thread to open eyes and I hope it can continue. I seem, at times, to be trapped in the 20th century, yet God has made me come to TBD to catch up with the here and now. Sending a blessing your way today and I am praying that the Lord, whose timing is perfect, finds my prayer to be timely for you and for your family.

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BillKingsley

Posted: Jul 26, 08 1:05pm

For some reason I believe that I was led to begin to look at some of the headings of the messages that OG has posted and I am so glad that I did.

I already feel like I have been Blessed this day just by leaving the political thread for a few minutes to read some here.

I don't really know, and I sure don't have all the answers about anything, but these discussions sound a lot more interresting and less bombing than where I started at on TBD.

I feel like I'll be returning to this Group and it's many Threads many times and often, even if I never post another message here.

To me it will be very Spiritually Uplifting and Comforting just to read the messages in this Group and especially on this Thread.

Have a Great Day to all.

Bill

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editor

Posted: Jul 28, 08 1:01am

I want to personally welcome you, Bill, to Christian By Choice. TBD is a hard room to play in, at times.

We are the ones that are blessed just knowing you have found this place and desire to worship the Lord, grow in Him, and fellowship with us.

God's Word goes out to the ends of the earth and we chose, in our small way, to proclaim here, Who is so great a God as our God!

Hope to see you often.

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Jeffersonman

Posted: Jul 28, 08 6:00am

Hi, I'm Jeff. I'm new to this site and I'm so glad i found this site. But I would like to say that the bible states in Malachi 4:5 that one of the 'Witnesses' God will send is Elijah; the other i believe will be Moses. It don't say that in the bible, but that would be my guess. (Moses is my guess).

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ordinarygirl

Posted: Jul 28, 08 6:11am

Jeffersonman wrote:

Hi, I'm Jeff. I'm new to this site and I'm so glad i found this site. But I would like to say that the bible states in Malachi 4:5 that one of the 'Witnesses' God will send is Elijah; the other i believe will be Moses. It don't say that in the bible, but that would be my guess. (Moses is my guess).

Welcome Bill and Jeffersonman!

Jeffersonman . . . your comment is exactly why I dismissed this Ronald Weinman. There is some question as to who the second Witness will be, Moses . . . Enoch has also been suggested. I suppose it's not entirely impossible that the second end time prophet be of our lifetime . . . but I don't outright believe his claims. And the fact that we already have people claiming to be prophets and/or messiahs is concerning. We know that those claims will only grow. There will be more and more of these people as we get closer to the end of the world (as we know it). And while some of them can be EASILY dismissed, some of them may present compelling 'evidence'. Precisely why I started this thread. We need to be able to discuss them, warn each other, reason with one another, and be prepared.

Thanks (both of you) for chiming in. CbC is a great board, Editor is an insightful admin, I think you'll find a lot of interesting discussions here.

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