Sounds very promising. Thanks for the link.

let me know if you have any questions about it -- glad to help. mengo

The old John Wayne image/configuration is desperately out of date

I disagree, IMHO John Wayne's character takes a lot of undeserved grief.

Look at Wayne's overall character in any of his typical movies: He was resolute, uncomplaining, willing to do whatever his task at hand required, self-deprecating, brave in the face of trouble or the enemy, kind to the weak, he despised evil, he upheld a strict code of honor. These are all positive character attributes and every man ought to aspire to live them out.

This doesn't mean his stereotype was perfect, but it was good *for what it was.* It was the beginning of what a man's character could and should be, not the whole of it.

Mengo, I agree with you men today are locked into a straitjacket of incommunication defined as manhood, in a society where materialism and secular success count more than one's character and actions.

We're also under a flood of contrary expectations: Provider/accepter, leader/follower, warrior/poet, stoic/empath, passive/active, resolute/non-threatening.

Can you imagine a sales director telling his #1 salesman, "We're letting you go. Your character defects are contrary to what this company represents"?

I see a big part of the problem as we have allowed popular media to define us.

Here's one example: Look at ten television commercials. In how many of them are men (fathers, husbands, singles) portrayed as clowns and fools? I bet more than a few. Yet women are almost wholly portrayed as strong, independent, intelligent, attractive. (We should hire their ad agency.)

I think John Wayne actually has a great deal of positives to offer the men's movement, but he offers us just the beginning, not the ending.

Yes Ken,

It is time to redefine us, the women.

Men are treated with more leniency..

We women in media and advertisements are portrayed as attractive, independent and more pluses. It is hurting us, all women kind.

As a result you, men are looking for such high attributes in women and simply we cannot fulfill such high men expectations. We sweat, we sometimes stink, we fart but you are not going to see such women in movies as well (except sex and the city).

I am positive that most of commercials about women have been created by men. They are to draw men attention as potential clients and they have to appeal to men imagination and their dreams. We are portrayed as you want to see us, not who we really are.

It is time to change it.

You are accepted by women the way you are with all weaknesses and faults. Women are not. They are ridiculed as well. See this comic drawing which was created by a man.

Having read your post and the link, IMO, it is decent thinking ..but I would not have a need to redefine my fundamental philosophy on manliness.

I also think that the majority of are so called "man hero's" of today are nothing more than spoiled brats, being coddled by their handlers and aspiring to a level of fame that destroys them from the inside out.

I prefer to live by the lessons and examples taught to me by my father as I grew from adolescence to a young man in the 50' & 60's.

For better or worse, I know who I am, both my strengths and weaknesses. I do not need another set of "principles put forth by the new millennian society" to redefine myself.

The proof of the pudding is the astonishing output of my life..that being my wonderful children.

BadFrog

Thanks for the reply, isabella. I've made some comments on it.

Men are treated with more leniency.

I agree women labor under stereotypes as well, but in advertising (which is where I'm going to focus my argument) those are more positive than what the men carry. Men get little leniency in advertising. We're portrayed as lovable failures or we're absent: Single mom alone with her child, or single woman period.

That said, the guys most often play the role of clown, and you don't see as many women in that role. I don't mean the women aren't funny, I mean they are not as often made fun of.

We women in media and advertisements are portrayed as attractive, independent and more pluses. It is hurting us, all women kind.

Being portrayed as attractive, strong, independent, etc., is way more positive than being portrayed as a slob and a moron.

As a result you, men are looking for such high attributes in women and simply we cannot fulfill such high men expectations.

The majority of men in our culture look for what they're conditioned to look for: Sex. Men will be more attracted at first to a pretty woman than to one less attractive. But this isn't a rule for every man. If it were, you'd never see a less or an unattractive woman with a boyfriend or husband. Yes, it's harder for a less attractive woman to appeal to a man, but it's not impossible--no matter what it feels like. So the old saying is mostly true: "There's someone for everyone." (Heck, even *I* got married, and that's saying something.)

[Most commercials about women] are to draw men attention as potential clients and they have to appeal to men imagination and their dreams.

Look at all the commercials for food and health and beauty products aimed solely at women. I can't think of a man who's going to buy a tampon for himself or buy a yogurt designed to balance a woman's gastric chemistry.

We are portrayed as you want to see us, not who we really are.

Yes, but that's the essence of advertising. If you owned a brewery, would you sponsor advertising that showed the drinkers of your beer to be fat, ugly, and dressed like slobs? No way. You want pretty people in your ads because you want potential buyers of your beer to think, "If I drink that beer I'll be like those fun, happy, pretty people who don't burp, stink, fart, puke or pass out in the parking lot."

Most men aren't idiots or hopeless dorks, we usually shuffle along life's path reasonably well.

You are accepted by women the way you are with all weaknesses and faults. Women are not. They are ridiculed as well. See this comic drawing which was created by a man.

IMHO you're over-generalizing here. I'm accepted by some women--certainly not by all. (To be fair, no woman is accepted by every man.)

That cartoon could as easily have been drawn by a woman. It points out a stereotype about PMS. Listen to comics like Kathy Griffin, Sandra Bernhard, Paula Poundstone, Joan Rivers, Lisa Lampanelli, Joy Behar--they all talk about women and issues such as PMS as much as they talk about men and men's issues.

I'm absolutely not saying men (or women) shouldn't be made fun of. There is an infinite amount of comedy in us as people and in our gender differences.

I'm asking for a more balanced portrayal, and that--somehow--we as a society stop letting advertising define us as men or women.

BTW: BadFrog, a most excellent post!

I have to agree about the media. It hurts us all. I have posted before that I got tired of US women who wanted the "pretty boy" but were willing to settle for a man who let them BE BOSS, Take responsiblity for them and their families (including non working adult children), pampered them and never complained. On the other side of the coin, there are men who jump from woman to woman (because they can), won't commit (because they don't want to be PW'd or responsible for someone elses problems).Meanwhile, the media sells us this BS, our politicians, and over spending lifestyles and entertains us with sports heroes that beat and kill their wives (not to mention torturing animals). If that isnt enough we get to hear about Paris or Lindsay L's latest drunk driving or "general assholiness" or Wil Smith's, Denzil Washington's or some other male "star's" portrayal of heroism. It's time for a revolt against the media. Stop buying their crap, attending their movies or electing their choices for presidents! Do this and I can guarantee things will change! That means for ALL of us and BOTH sexes.