Today marks 5 years of military action, war, in Iraq.
Was it worth it?
Really? Why?
RoseFinch
Posted:
Mar 18, 08
4:08pm
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Posted: Mar 19, 08 7:54pm
I'll probably get attacked for this, but here goes anyway...
I wish that (some) Americans would get their heads out of the sand and realize what is really happening.
I just finished watching a TV program here (I'm Canadian) that addressed the very question you asked. The Canadian journalist interviewed several ex intelligence personnel from your state department. Every one of them stated that the Bush government manipulated intelligence information (and outright lied to the American public) to justify their invasion of Iraq. Bush and his cronies accused Iraq of having "weapons of mass destruction" which of course were never found and US intelligence knew that they didn't exist.
Bush accused Saddam of killing his own people (the Kurds) through the use of poison gas and other weapons. What Bush left out, was that it was the US who supplied these very weapons to Iraq, so that they could attack Iran. The US governement knew for several years that Saddam was using them to kill his own people, but the US ignored this and continued to provide resources to Iraq. Bush Sr. and his government considered Saddam to be an allay.
Bush Jr. again distored the truth by blaming 911 on Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 911 and this has been confirmed by US intelligence.
It is a war that cannot be won, and everytime Bush goes on TV to claim that the US is winning the war, he is once again lying.
We can only hope that Americans come to their senses in the next election, and do not elect another Republican.
Posted: Mar 19, 08 8:18pm
On this issue we agree, Sharon!
Posted: Mar 20, 08 4:48am
i agree too. i was against it before it started (oh gawd do i sound like obama/hillary arguing?). i think the cost of this war has put our economy in the toilet, not to mention the death, injury and heartbreak.
on the bright side (insert sarcasm), this war does seem to have attracted many of the terrorists to iraq to wreak their madness rather than attacking here.
okay, i have my umbrella up, start pelting away all you who disagree........
Posted: Mar 22, 08 10:19pm
Sharon...every word you spoke is right on the money...many of us knew before hand that we were being lied to. So what was this war really about? Saddam said it was because George Bush wanted to control the Oil market. His execution was quite quick. Curiously, about a month ago Alan Greenspan (former Federal Reserve Chairman) admitted that the war was about oil. One fact never brought up by the mainstream press or the talking heads at CNN or FOX was that Saddam Hussein was going to start taking Euro's for his oil. For decades, no matter what country you were, you could only buy oil with dollars. This move wouold have shaken the foundations of wealthy and powerful people who have control of the worlds economy now via one liquid commodity. It's like Baron Rothchild once said, "Give me control of the worlds cashbox and I care not who makes the rules".
Posted: Mar 23, 08 5:44am
yes, indeed, there, kenny. wars are often a fight over resources, not high falutin' principles.
Posted: Mar 26, 08 8:30am
As a fellow Canadian you will find that I wholeheartedly agree with you. I too have been following reports of Canadian journalists, and those from many other countries, and it seems the only reporters who say it was worth it, and still is are some American right wing ones.
Posted: Mar 20, 08 5:16am
In recognition of the 5 years of war, the BBC commissioned a series of programmes entitled "10 days to War".
This mini-drama series is based on true stories and in each of the episodes world-famous actors (such as Juliet Stevenson and Kenneth Brannagh) play the parts of the key figures in the UK debates. I was transfixed.
Immediately after each episode was aired, the real people involved were interviewed. As I don't watch much TV these days, I recommend these mini-dramas for your consideration.
Each one is about 10 minutes long.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/10_days_to_war/default.stm
It occurs to me that this might not be available to anyone outside the UK for copyright reasons, but if it does get aired in your country, please set aside time for it.
If you are serious about this issue, you will really need to allocate some time to do it and I recommend you follow the episodes in chronogical order.
The above link also has a section on the right hand side where you can access the interviews and debates which followed each episode.
Posted: Mar 20, 08 5:17am
thanks, britscot. a beautiful thing about the internet is that if you search hard enough, you can find almost any episode of anything that ever aired. how do you think i get my 'doctor who' fixes?
Posted: Apr 13, 08 3:45am
Brit, I tried to listen to several of the clips from the website you referenced, but I kept getting the following message, "Cannot play media. Sorry, this media is not available in your territory." What's up with that do you think?
Posted: Mar 20, 08 6:25am
Rose,
Thanks for the topic and I hope it evokes a "kinder gentler" discussion... I completely agree with Sharon and Britscot.
I've never understood how the each year polls are conducted on the topic of trustworthiness. Clergy are always near the top and lawyers, politicians, and used car salesman are always at the bottom. (I apologize to lawyers and used car salesman) Yet, during the prelude to war people blindly believe "everything" that politician’s say even if it is contrary to the facts...
I've never understood whether this is part fear and part nationalism or what drives this fervent behavior.
I've had very intelligent people try to explain the connections between Iraq and Al Qaeda. When I reply with the military assessment states that there is no credible connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda, they change the topic...
The people that believe war is the "first" and "best" option in every case...this war was worth it... I believe war is the "last" option and in this case it was not worth it.
Britscot Thanks for the links!
Posted: Mar 20, 08 2:58pm
greg--
so far, no one has swooped in and attacked.....
yet.......
Posted: Mar 20, 08 5:07pm
I must say that I'm pleasantly surprised that everyone who has replied to this discussion topic so far, seems pretty darn sane. When I've shared similar thoughts on other threads, I've been attacked.
Thanks for the great comments on here.
Posted: Mar 25, 08 2:40am
Absolutely it was worth it . There were no WMD's and no connection to 9-11 . You can't judge the war without understanding it's purpose and what we've sacrificed .
4,000 American soldiers dead, plus. With the privatization of many military functions our actual deployment is twice the number of soldiers in Iraq . Our government stopped estimating Iraqi civilian casualties in the second year of the occupation . 4,000 dead is a fraction of the human loss .
If you hate America ,appreciate human suffering , waste of life and are incredibly rich and in the right industry the Iraq war has been a bargain .
Posted: Mar 25, 08 4:36pm
Can you say Haliburton children?
Posted: Mar 25, 08 6:33am
I'm with Disclaimer, from a business point of view, yah its been worth it. Somebody is make a lot of money off of this deal. From any other point of view it is a terrible waste of human life.
Posted: Mar 25, 08 4:27pm
yeah, but, who is making this money, and what good is it doing the rest of us?
Posted: Mar 25, 08 9:26am
Well, here we are with an almost bankrupt economy, a reputation in the world as total idiots and a president who could be the most snivelling coward and liar since Caligula.
You tell me.
Posted: Mar 25, 08 4:42pm
Actually I think this President goes way beyond Caligula. If he were pinnochio he'd have a nose that stretched around the world. Did you know that the payroll records that would have established once and for all whether he actually fulfilled his duty in the National guard mysteriously disappeared? I think the people who voted for this guy basically fall into two categories...the very rich and the very stupid.
Kenny
Posted: Mar 25, 08 12:54pm
It disappoints me how many replies to this question don't answer the question at all... and yet pat themselves and each other on the back for their efforts.
Ask the Iraqi civilians that now have clean water, electricity and school classes. Ask the Iraqi parents of boys that no longer worry about their sons being 'drafted' buy force. I could go on, but I think (hope) you get my point.
How much is peace worth? Remember math tests where you had to 'show your work'? Peace is the answer, war is the 'work' needed to arrive at that answer.
Posted: Mar 25, 08 2:31pm
i hardly think baghdad has become a great place to raise kids in...yet. of course, they are probably used to the bombs by now.
love is the answer. not war.
Posted: Mar 25, 08 4:10pm
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from Hip. I agree with Rose on this one, and I really don't think the Iraqi civilians want the US there as much as you think they do. Once again your government is feeding you a bunch of nonsense, and you're falling for it.
On another note...
I just watched a report on the local news station here. There are 150 US soldiers in Toronto right now, applying for refugee status so that they can remain in Canada. These are all soldiers who saw active combat duty, were honourably discharged, and then told that they had to come back and fight in Iraq. These 150 soldiers all claim that they no longer want anything to do with the US army or with the US under Bush, because they believe that the US is fighting an "illegal" war in Iraq.
Milt said it well in his post. The rest of the world does view Americans as "idiots" right now. It's not really Americans, it's your current government. Bush has destroyed your country's reputation throughout the rest of the world, and we just don't understand why you elected this moron twice. I really hope you can redeem yourselves by not electing another Republican.
Posted: Mar 25, 08 4:52pm
How about if we ask the almost 500,000 Iraqi's who have been killed because of the ineptitude of the US leadership who had no idea of how to plan for a war they had no business starting in the first place. How about all those people who are blown to bits attenting funerals for their loved ones. How about all that Iraqi oil money that was supposed to pay for the rest of this war but now we're finding out that the money is basically being stolen via corruption while the Iraqi government still wants us to pick up the tab. And of course now that we f**ked everything up and can't leave that's exactly what we're going to keep doing...and when we leave eventually a religious theocracy is going to form in our wake where woman will not be allowed to be educated...and this peace was not worth 4,000 American lives or 500,000 Iraqis.
Posted: Mar 26, 08 1:27am
HipGnosis
Clean water , electricity and good schools ! Can you fix our roads too ? Oh you think we're providing these things for Iraq . uh...Well maybe in some places, an hour of electricity a day in other places. They're shelling the Green Zone so I'm sure the schools are safe .
I guess we can afford to build Iraq at an insane mark up since we don't need to repair our infrastructure at home and we've got the money to spend anyway .
Peace? Did you say peace? NO WMDs no connection to 9-11 how exactly does this war have anything to do with peace ?
Posted: Mar 25, 08 8:53pm
Well actually we didn't Sharon, not the second time. The electoral college did it for us, he lost the popular vote. Personally, I fail to understand why we still need such an antiquated relic as the electoral college. Perhaps simply to make sure we don't accidentally upset the monied interests and the powers that be when we occasionally get it right. Same reason the democratic party thinks it needs the superdelegates I guess.
Never mind me though, I flunked politics 101.
Posted: Mar 26, 08 4:48am
I have to admit Gator, as a Canadian, your electoral system has never made any sense to me...and I'm a political "junkie".
Unfortunately the rest of the world thinks that you elected Bush twice.
Posted: Mar 26, 08 4:55am
i am with you in flunking politics, gg. i always end up saying silly things like 'love each other' on these posts and getting pummelled for it. not that that has happened here, yet.
on a different track mentioned above, back in the good old days of WW2, war did stimulate the economy, and the benefits were wide spread. not so this war, where the money is concentrated in the hands of a few. we are, as so many above have eloquently stated, in a very bad financial fix in the US due to the cost of this tragedy called a war.
not to mention the human wrecks who are veterans come home, amputated, PTSD'ed, homeless, mentally ill, sexually assaulted, and committing homicides because of what happened to them there. and all for what??? and all for what
Posted: Apr 10, 08 7:52am
I think you hit the nail on the head GG
John WM
Posted: Apr 11, 08 5:53pm
I didn't, not once not twice not ever! I am an American. do you all hate me?
Posted: Mar 30, 08 7:42am
Rose
As much as I admire WWII it realy only stimulated the US economy, mainly because we were not bombed. Germany and Japan were devestated and only because the US decided to invest in rebuilding them were they able to come out of it. Keep in mind that rebuilding your fallen foe is unique in history. But pumping money into another country doesn't necessary mean we have to have a war to do it. It is unfortunate that we have major industry's dependant on war in order to make money. For their survival others have to die.
Posted: Mar 30, 08 9:26am
no argument from me, leo. and you know who has made the biggest money from this war, cheney and halliburton and pals.
Posted: Mar 30, 08 12:45pm
Well you were bombed once.
Otherwise I think you are right.
Posted: Mar 30, 08 1:08pm
Just as an historical note, the West Coast of America was bombed in WWII over 200 times by Japanese balloons. One family was killed in Oregon while picnicking. It was suppressed by the US Govt until recently to avoid widespread panic at the time.
Also suppressed during WWII, and not released until J Edgar Hoover authorized publication of The FBI Story (great movie w/Jimmy Stewart, too), were the number of Nazi sabateurs and Japanese spies who made it to US soil. It was because of the spying the Japanese were hustled off to the desert internment camps (stupid decision, but I wasn't around to be asked an opinion). Probably the reason the Germans weren't was because they outnumbered the Armed Forces in toto.
However, (y'all knew this was coming, didn't you?), in the words of John Stuart Mill, as he wrote in his pamphlet during just-pre-Revolutionary times, entitled, On Liberty, to wit: “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse.”
I've served as acadet, an elisted man, and as an officer, in the US Army. The military option is always the last used in a civilized nation, when ALL other attempts have failed. I've been wounded, injured, and decorated. If I were fit and young enough, I'd be in the Middle East as I type this.
It was -and is- worth it. Iraq has a democracy - imperfect as it is now - for the first time in its recorded history, and that stretches over 5,000 years, people! And before we jump all over that, it took us over 7 years after our Revolution to become a republican democracy (nothing to do with political parties, but form of government, the first and longest-lived form of this government in the history of the world). We are hated for this then, and it hasn't stopped in the interim. We will be hated tomorrow with a dedicated foe millions strong. Trust we have someone willing enough, with fortitude enough, to sacrifice a few parts to save the body politic.
Posted: Mar 30, 08 1:48pm
Sorry Lance. I really meant to type you were bombed at LEAST once, meaning Pearl Harbor. It just seemed like such a huge oversight I couldn't resist commenting on it.
I do not doubt that you were attacked more times. There had to be a reason that not only the US, but Canada as well, interred all the Japanese in their countries, including all the ones who were born in North America, who had never been to Japan. A horrendous mistake by both countries in my belief.
Posted: Mar 30, 08 2:24pm
with all respect, LanSR, there was nothing in iraq that was 'worth a war'. the military option was not the 'last thing used' in this particular situation. the so called facts this war was based on were not facts at all. the whole thing is a sham and a waste of lives and resources. a tragedy. and the ones who are profiting from it are untouched by the horror and the stark human reality of it. the wounded vets, the displaced peoples, the women trying to hold homes together, the children who are traumatized from growing up in a nation immersed in a nightmare, they are the ones who suffer for this. not the policy makers, not the ones who decided to go ahead with this thing.
Posted: Mar 31, 08 6:55am
Sorry all, just wanted to clarify the statement. I know the Japanese had sent incendiary balloon bombs in an attempt to start forest fires on the west coast and asid from the 4 members of the family picnicing, it was largly a failure. Pearl Harbor was a military base and that was very destructive. However I meant that our infrastructure was not destroyed, virtually untouched by the war. Both Germany and Japan's infrastructure was destroyed. No factories, roads, communications etc. That takes a lot of investment to rebuild. That is where war can stimulate the economy is by investing in the rebuilding.
Posted: Mar 30, 08 12:03pm
Im a military veteran, and I have to say NO, it wasn't/isn't worth it. Our government has lied to us about so many things it's just not even funny anymore. If we knew what was really going on in our country/government we would all be running for the hills. Our forefathers would be disgusted at what we've become.
There are a couple of great websites to go check out and see just exactly what is taking place now and all over the world.
Have you ever heard of the 'georgia guidestones?' Google them and see what you find....Also look up Alex Jone's Prison Planet, watch a couple of movies called A crude Awakening, and right at your door....Some may say it's all conspiracy, but you have to take the time to think about everything that goes on we don't know about....
Im proud that I served my country, but not proud of the fact our government lies to us about WHY we are really there.
It's a shame the general population doesn't realize just how fucked up the United States is these days.
It's ok if anyone wants to bash me...I can take it.
Posted: Mar 30, 08 12:05pm
kimber, thanks for that strong statement.
i remember when the war started, and i could see through the lies, i thought of all the military families who believed bush, and how bad it was gonna be for them when they lost loved ones. because they trusted him.
Posted: Apr 2, 08 3:54pm
I don't know if this answers the question or not, but I'll probably get slammed for it anyway.
I think the war was good for one thing, it took a dictator out of power. Was it the right way to do it, well now 5 years later we all see that it was not. Did the US put him there in the first place, sure but at that time we didn't know what kind of leader he would become. I don't know about other countries but I do know that the media in the US is slanted against the war so we don't get the whole story. There are very few stories about good things happening, and I'm sure there are good things that have come about since Saddam was taken out of power. I believe Bush had his agenda he wanted to get done. I find it hard that all the intelligence was manufactured and that everyone in the congress and senate were duped by it. the final vote for use of force was 77 for 23 against in the senate (77%) for it, and 296 for and 133 against in the house (69%). So basically we're saying most of our congress are too stupid to see false information. As for saying we went to war because of 9/11, I don't remember it being said that was the one of the main reasons, I think it was said Saddam was supporting terrorist activities and al-queda who were responsible for 9/11. I think the biggest mistake that happened in this war was they didn't not realize what would happen after Saddam was taken out of power. they did not plan on constant terrorist attacks. Since war is now on the tv as it happens and the front pages of every newspaper you have to fight politically correct. well that's very hard to do when the current enemy doesn't fight politically correct. Are the american soldiers the ones killing the Iraqi citizens each day? no its the terrorists that don't give a crap who they kill. So the soldiers hands are tied, they try to help the innocent while the enemy constantly uses that to their advantage. to me there is no right or wrong answer. We have over 4000 soldiers that have died, I don't know how many soldiers have died from other coalition armies. there are countless iraqi citizens that have died since it started, do we know how many were dying before under Saddam? during, WW1, WW2 and Vietnam 4000 soldiers dying in a month was a low number so 4000 in 5 years in a war could be said of a great improvement. That's said in jest because the loss of one soldier is a really sad thing. the other side of the ball is in every war prior to this one the soldiers were drafted to go to fight against their will, this war is fought by men and women that signed up to be in the military. Sure some did it to get the perks not thinking that at any moment because they signed their name on the dotted line they could be sent off to fight and possibly die for those perks. I've read countless blogs about soldiers that have fought in Iraq and they talk about how for the most part the Iraqi citizens are happy they are there fighting for them. They even sign up to go back after their tour has finished. You can call me any name you want and say I've got my head stuck in the sand or up my butt, but would you rather live under a supreme dictator and be forced to send your sons off to fight for whatever he/she wanted? or would you rather have some kind of government where the people have a say in things. sure the fight for it is terrible. Lets look at the revolutionary war and the civil war, how many people died in those fights for a certain type of government? Sorry, I'm rambling, but to finish up, at first I agreed with Bush and going into Iraq. Saddam wanted the world to think he was this all powerful guy with WMD's and an army that would wipe out any other. As for now, I don't support Bush because he does try to make it sound like things are great and he has not taken any of his administration to task over the faulty information that was used. he basically has said in at least his last term and some of his first term, up yours to what the american people want. he had his agenda and is going to shove it down our throats whether we like it or not. I'm glad our government has the ability to get rid of him after 8 years max. the Iraqi people never had that kind of power. Hopefully when all is said and done, they will have a say and for that I would say then it was worth it. Flame away...
Posted: Apr 2, 08 4:48pm
Rush...
Where the heck do you get your information from???
You have a "supreme dictator" right in your own country. Do you honestly think that Bush is any better than Saddam??
You claim that US soldiers support this war. Did you happen to read my earlier post? The one about the US soldiers who are now in Canada, seeking refugee status based on the fact that they are being forced to fight an illegal war. Yes, these soldiers originally signed up on a voluntary basis. They went to war and were given honourable discharges. They were then told that they had to come back and fight in Iraq.
You claim that the US media is biased against the war. What the heck TV channels/newspapers do you read???
As a Canadian, I can tell you that the news we get here is anti war. From a Canadian's perspective, your media is very pro war. You don't even get the actual news about what is happening in the war...or within your own country.
Why do you think that the US is so disliked by the rest of the world? I'm not just talking the middle east...even Europeans don't like what America stands for right now.
So yes, get your head out of the sand.
Posted: Apr 2, 08 5:35pm
Sharon~ I don't know what american news you are watching but each night on my newscasts it shows the polls of americans against the war, the anti war protests. the anti bush protests. The news I see, which is on the major networks, cbs, abc, nbc, fox, are anti war slanted. I don't know what your definition of a supreme dictator is, but mine, to clarify, is one that takes power by force or is instilled into office by force, not elected, and who has to be removed from office by force. Our President is voted into office and has a set term in office and has to leave when that term is up. Our government has the power to remove him at any time by impeachment if they feel he has broken our constitution and can prove it in a court of law. our people have the power to vote him out of office every 4 years, let's not get into the popular vote verses the electoral college because i agree the electoral college is outdated but our citizens have not removed it from our constitution so that is how the president is still elected to office. I agree that america is disliked around the world based on what our president has done, most of americans dislike our president and his policies also, which i am now one of them. I said i have read numerous blogs about soldiers who have been in Iraq and say what they have found on the ground. I will agree there are those that have found the opposite. I didn't say every soldier is for it, i'm just pointing out that not all are trying to get out and also they all signed up. I understand that some are brought back into service but they are because they volunteered in the first place. If they wanted to fight it they have the right to fight their reenlistment. I was trying to make points on the opposite side of why this war could end up as a good outcome, which would be a government that is voted by the citizens and which the citizens have a voice in, which under saddam, their previous government, they did not have. I believe your government is somewhat like ours, you get to vote your leader into power and and they have a limited time they are in power. The question here wasn't about Bush it was if the war was worth it which I'm saying it hopefully will be if some form of democratic government comes out of it and to say Bush is as bad as Saddam I take offense at that because even though he is our leader and the responsibility ultimately lands on him but really with our citizens because we voted him into that position twice, he has not done the atrocities that saddam has done to his people while he was in office.
Posted: Apr 2, 08 6:48pm
Rush
Fox news is anti-war?, that's news to me.
I agree with Sharon, I also am a Canadian, and I get news from Canadian, and British networks, as well as all the US major networks, including the news channels CNN, FOX, and MSNBC. No way are all these stations anti-war, but especially not FOX. I know we get the same reports, so how can you believe what you do?, when the rest of the world is in such strong disagreement? We did, and still do, support you in Afghanistan, but in Iraq, no way.