Hi Ken,

These scriptures....written by man? yes? Inspired by the "beliefs" they held? Interpreted by man? I should blindly follow these only for the reason of worthiness or entitlement? How can we say on one hand we are not worthy and on the other ask for his help? I dont believe gods grace is available only to certain christians or religions nor do i think we have to act or achieve anything to be worthy of it. We simply have to ask and believe it will be delivered unto us, and that i think is pretty universal. The difficulty in that process is believing it, unwaivering faith at least it is for me. As far as the unbelievers go, if they are unbelievers do they even ask?

Thought-provoking response, Anthony. Just what I was hoping for!

You said, These scriptures....written by man? yes? Inspired by the "beliefs" they held? Interpreted by man? I should blindly follow these only for the reason of worthiness or entitlement?

Ah, now we get into the question of veracity and authority of scripture? Yes, scripture was written by man, but according to orthodox Christian doctrine, "God-breathed," i.e., divinely inspired.

I don't think that means the writers were human Dictaphones, but rather God expressed Himself through their own personalities and characters, so the character and tone of each book is different yet still aligned with God's purpose in giving His word to humans.

Imagine God using painters instead of writers (o, the horror! Eliminating the writer! ;)> ) to express His will and teaching to us. Each painting would be different, since each painter would likely have a different style, yet the images depicted would all somehow point to God, to Jesus.

Since Jesus is the pivot around which Christianity revolves, it follows He's the perfect expression of God's grace. We simply cannot compare to Him in that regard.

So in the sense of your question, no, we're *not* worthy to ask for grace. We're fallen beings with a terminal condition: Sin. It's a condition we can't cure ourselves nor can we rid ourselves of it by our best efforts.

It is knit into our very bones and cells. Because of this terminal condition, we *must* ask for help. We're like lepers begging for succor. All of our best strengths, highest learnings, deepest wisdoms--not worth a fart in a windstorm where it counts: Eternity.

There is no efficacy in us when we step off Time's stage. This is the reason we're so dependent on grace. Grace does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. It heals us, redeems us, cleanses from us sin and stupidity. (Well, maybe I need a bit more work on the last one.)

Our world is based on contract: "I do for you so you have to do for me." Grace says, "I do for you because you cannot do for yourself." If we were perfect people, we wouldn't need grace.

nor do i think we have to act or achieve anything to be worthy of it.

Yes! If we have to pay for grace, by doing ANYTHING, then it is not grace we're paying for--it's something else. Grace must be available to me regardless if I genuflect at the altar, take Communion, tithe, evangelize, read my Bible, listen to Christian music or think Christian thoughts.

It must be available to me whether I'm in church, on a Harley roaring down Hwy 101 (my dream!), in a strip club, even face down in the gutter and convulsing from injecting bad heroin.

This doesn't mean grace is permission to do bad things. Grace is never, ever license. But grace is the hand of God, and who tells God where He can or cannot go? Where does God refuse to go because He's offended at human behavior or filth or smell? Is he more partial to pulpits or corporate boardrooms or cots in a Filipino whorehouse? Who says to God, "I'm so wicked even You can't save me and You must ignore me!"

The difficulty in that process is believing it, unwavering faith at least it is for me. And for me. I talk a lot about grace but in the end I have as much trouble asking for it as anyone else. My pride gets in the way too often.

As far as the unbelievers go, if they are unbelievers do they even ask?

Certainly! When the need is big enough, when there are no other alternatives, it's amazing how unbelievers will turn to God in desperation.

The hard bit for most of us to swallow is God has no pride. Even if some sleazebag, whom we all think the Earth would be better off without, begs grace from God even if he doesn't use those words, God will answer. God is the original Party Girl, He'll go out to anyone. He has no standards! He offers grace to the sorriest, most worthless pieces of two-legged trash you'll ever see. And He never asks for repayment.

I don't know about you, but that offends me. Damnit, I'm not like those corporate greedheads or scum-o drug pushers! I'm a decent guy! Shouldn't I get some special reward for keeping my nose clean? Jesus says my only reward is the cross and the daily walk of growing closer to Him. Do you know how stupid that looks on a resumé?! Arrrrgh!

I'm sorry, I've really climbed up onto my soapbox and overpowered your post. I'll stop now and let's see if anyone else joins us at the table.

I'll buy the next round.

"The difficulty in that process is believing it, unwavering faith at least it is for me."

I'm reminded of the father in Mark 9 who said "Lord, I believe; Help my unbelief!"

Good thoughts Ken,

Shelley

Thanks, Shelly. Please feel free to add your own.

I think the thing that overwhelms me the most is God's grace in spite of my total depravity. The fact that a holy God would be willing to save me even though there is no good thing in me b/c of my fleshly sin. To some that may seem depressing or upsetting. To me it is comforting. I know the thoughts I have that no one else knows. My sinful nature. How thankful I am that my salvation is determined by no merit of my own. I couldn't achieve it.

The thought of someone else receiving unmerited favor b/c they don't "deserve" it doesn't upset me. I also don't deserve it. Nobody does. We deserve death. Plus living a life in response to God's calling is a blessed life. A life that only achieves that say on their deathbed, has missed out on so many of the blessings that come from death to self in service to Christ. These are not tangible things I'm talking about. I think many in christianity today view blessings in light of tangibles.

Along with that God's sovereignty has brought me similar comfort in my life. Comfort and especially rest from my labor. I am co-laboring and I have a responsibility to respond when He speaks to me, but rest when life doesn't work out the way I was thinking or striving for. God has a plan. He says that all things are working for good to those that love Him and are called according to His purposes. What I'm going through may not always feel good, but by faith I believe it will be good for me.

Another good topic would be the role of suffering in our lives. We spend so much time avoiding it and yet suffering brought about our salvation. Something interesting to ponder.

Shelley

I think God does show his grace to unbelievers by allowing many of them to have great lives (e.g., good marriages, plenty of money, plenty of friends, etc.) here on earth, knowing that is all they will have, and that their eternity is going to be too horrible to imagine. This IS their heaven on earth, so to speak.

That's an interesting thought. Scripture does say not to store up our treasure on earth but in heaven. Their treasures are only here. Sad.